?????

Originally Posted By SallyOmalley

White woman resigns from naacp.

How far are people going to take this?

 

Originally Posted By Dabob2

I think this is kind of a "one-off" story, signifying nothing more than this one woman's story, despite attempts by some to make it mean something more than that somehow.

I think Jon Stewart pretty much nailed it here (at about 2:45 he talks about others trying and failing to make it mean something other than what it is):

<a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/9pxi9w/whaaaaaaaat-----black-ish-ish">http://thedailyshow.cc.com/vid...-ish-ish</a>

Then Jessica Williams, predictably, nails it too:

<a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/00lje7/oppression-cosplay">http://thedailyshow.cc.com/vid...-cosplay</a>

 

Originally Posted By SallyOmalley

Some people keep insisitng that girl wants to be boy is same fight(Same issue) as black equality and acceptance

But if that is true then why do those people have a cow when white identifies as black? Make up your minds will ya?

Either the issue of race and sex for acceptance is the same or the issue is different. But not both

 

Originally Posted By RoadTrip

Caitlyn has never denied who she was. She knows she was born biologically male, she has taken responsibility for mistakes she made in getting married and as a parent. She has never tried to hide her past and has been very open about her reasons for doing what she has done.

On the other hand Dolezal has consistently lied about her background, and now tries to excuse her deception in a litany of big words and double-speak. I have some sympathy or her in feeling that there must have been some real psychological issues involved to make her do that. But to equate her with Jenner is insane.

 

Originally Posted By TomSawyer

"But to equate her with Jenner is insane."

Is it?

Biology tells me that someone is male because they have a Y chromosome. They insist that they should be recognized as and treated as a female because that is who they feel they are inside. Gender is not what biology says, but what society says.

Race is a social construct as well. Who are we to say that someone isn't African American if that is who they believe they are inside? Who are we to say that someone needs to be treated as a male if they feel like they are gender female?

Jenner can no longer control his chromosomal make-up or the existence of a penis than Dolezal can control the color of her skin, but for both they want to be defined by the identity they feel that they truly are.

I don't understand how we can look at Dolezal and think that she has psychological issue because she wants to live as a different race than her outward appearance would indicate, and then be castigated for thinking that Jenner's transgenderism is a mental disorder.

Race and gender are social constructs.

 

Originally Posted By SallyOmalley

You are missing the point, roadtrip

Or at least missing my point

This isn't about "hiding", "regrets" or past conduct about 2 specific people. It is much broader, so much bigger than that.

I have heard people equate the lesgaytrans movement to black people's equal rights. In other words gender identity and race identity are the same and should both be equally accepted and protected.

And now some of these same people have a cow if a white identifies as being black.

If one wants to change a biologically predetermined gender due to identify issues and the masses support it then those same masses should be consistent if one wants to change race.

These are the same masses who said gay is same issue as race.

 

Originally Posted By SallyOmalley

Can't we all be who we want to be and tell society to f off and leave people alone.

 

Originally Posted By Dabob2

<I have heard people equate the lesgaytrans movement to black people's equal rights. In other words gender identity and race identity are the same and should both be equally accepted and protected. >

Well, no, that's not what anyone says.

Plenty of people say that both race and sexual orientation have historically been used to discriminate against people for no good reason. And that there are parallels between the struggles for civil rights based on race and based on sexual orientation. But no one says they're the same - this is a common misconception. There are similarities and there are differences - both important.

And Tom - I get what you're saying. Race and gender are at least in part social constructs. But I think RT has a point when he says that part of the reaction to Dolezal was her dishonesty; she didn't say she "felt" black, she said she had African ancestry. If she'd said the former, or simply worked for the NAACP as a white ally (which has a long and welcome tradition at the NAACP), no one would have a problem.

Even now, the NAACP doesn't have a problem per se. The local chapter said it was probably better she step down due to the distraction and the media frenzy, but they also praised her work there.

The only people who seem to have a problem with her are commentators who have seized on the frenzy and trying to make it mean something larger somehow. But how can this be representative of anything when this is literally the only such case anyone's ever heard of? It's man bites dog, which explains some of the frenzy.

Decades ago, some light-skinned blacks passed for white, but the reason was obvious: a much easier life. Other than "Black Like Me" or fiction, this is literally the first time I've heard of this. One is an awfully small sample size.

 

Originally Posted By Tikiduck

There is the dishonesty, and there is the fact that while representing herself as African American, she has not lived the experience of a true African American.
Her credibility is worthless.

 

Originally Posted By TomSawyer

So someone who hasn't lived the true experience of a woman - like having monthly menstruation, worrying about pregnancy, etc - doesn't have any credibility when they want to be treated as a woman? Jenner has no credibility?

Race is entirely a social construct, whereas gender has a biological, chromosomal base. Jenner was born with a fully functioning XY chromosome and a male phenotype. His biological sex was determined at birth, and it is not possible for her to become pregnant or to carry a fetus. Her gender identity is entirely social and psychological.

However, race is not biological. There are geographic phenotypes that develop in local populations over time based on the social and adaptive advantages that those phenotypes produce. And there are some members within a geographically distinct population that may exhibit phenotypical appearances that are different than the norm but whose genetic markers still exist in the DNA. Red haired, fair skinned Africans, for example, or blue-eyed Asians. Humans are one species with many surface variations, but any fertile male and any fertile female can breed.

And Dolezal has African ancestry. We all do; every single human being on the planet has a longer line of African ancestors than non-African ancestors.

The media seized on this because it is reflective of the Jenner story and transgenderism. We are shifting as a society to allow people to self-identify what socially constructed group that they belong to and the question of whether that includes the social construct of race on top of gender resonates.

 

Originally Posted By Dabob2

<And Dolezal has African ancestry. We all do; every single human being on the planet has a longer line of African ancestors than non-African ancestors.>

Go back far enough, and yeah. But that's not what Dolezal was claiming.

<The media seized on this because it is reflective of the Jenner story and transgenderism. We are shifting as a society to allow people to self-identify what socially constructed group that they belong to and the question of whether that includes the social construct of race on top of gender resonates. >

I think the media initially seized on this for entirely different reasons, and what you're describing came later. It was initially seized on by Fox, Drudge, talk radio, and the other parts of the noise machine to belittle this woman and race-bait. It's what they do. Then they got the bright idea to link it to Jenner as a way of saying that Jenner "couldn't really be" female just because she wanted to be, any more than Dolezal could be black just because she wanted to be. You are what you are, dammit (or what WE say you are), was the noise machine message.

Only later did more thoughtful people start talking about more thoughtful things like race as a social construct. The initial media frenzy was both reactive and reactionary.

 

Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan

The larger question in this is if she could have done her work as effectively simply acknowledging that she is a white woman.

No small part of it are the various hate crimes she claimed, which seem to be shaky at best, and he claims of discrimination against Howard University. Seems like wanting to have it both ways, whenever it is most convenient.

 

Originally Posted By RoadTrip

I've decided I identify with tall and handsome so dammit... you better start treating me accordingly!

 

Originally Posted By Dabob2

What was that?

Sorry. I got distracted by the post by the tall handsome man.