Originally Posted By Yookeroo "All three are absolute masterpieces. However Hellfire is hands-down the most stunning scene from any Disney animated feature from that generation (and arguably ever). Animated to perfection by the Brizzi brothers, full of sexual tension that exposures Frollo for the fraud he is and musically the darkest thing ever written. Schwartz is a master lyricist. Counterpointing it with Heaven's Light showed two writers at the peak of their powers. Menken has never recovered from those heights." You speak the truth.
Originally Posted By basil fan >>There are a couple of jarring moments with modern speak that were unnecessary. It is my opinion that the old films we remember as not having this problem only look that way because we are 70-some years removed from them, and that Snow White and the dwarfs were just as modern in their dialogue. Sherlock Holmes' Christmas Carol <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.whatsitsgalore.com/sherlock/twelve.html">http://www.whatsitsgalore.com/...lve.html</a>
Originally Posted By Dabob2 For sure Jiminy Cricket used then-current, very American slang, as did Lampwick. (And how did a Brooklyn kid get to the Alps anyway?).
Originally Posted By mawnck >>the old films we remember as not having this problem only look that way because we are 70-some years removed from them<< THIS!
Originally Posted By basil fan Now Jiminy is not a "current" character, he's a "hip" character, like Mushu or Genie. Not the same as the Dwarfs, who use ordinary 1937 dialogue. Phil's Hero Rules <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.whatsitsgalore.com/disney/hero.html">http://www.whatsitsgalore.com/...ero.html</a>
Originally Posted By mawnck >>who use ordinary 1937 dialogue<< But that's the point. It's ordinary *1937* dialog … with American Southern accents. And the actors playing the dwarves were recognizable radio comedians.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Now Jiminy is not a "current" character, he's a "hip" character, like Mushu or Genie. Not the same as the Dwarfs, who use ordinary 1937 dialogue. < The dwarfs used ordinary 1937 un-hipster dialogue; Jiminy used 1940 hipster dialogue. Both completely current to their times though. mawnck and I are actually agreeing with you; it's nothing new for Disney films to use (then)-contemporary American dialogue, including slang. 70 years from now, the slang in Frozen will seem no more jarring than the slang in earlier pictures does now. And if it doesn't date well in a couple of places (which is also the case with the earlier films), we're likely to forgive it pretty quickly if the picture as a whole is good.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: These are very important points to be made. My sisters and I have often pondered this very subject. It often seems that OTHER studio's manage to capture an old world flavor to their period pieces better than Disney does. Disney just goes with the modern flow and allows characters to say things like, "Don't freak out!" (Rapunzel to Flynn) when such a phrase seems too modern for a character in a medieval fairytale. ORWEN: I wish Disney would at least TRY to do a better job of having the characters from fairy tales keep from using current slang because that's what helps transport the audience AWAY to another world; away from what's common and 'today'. I want to be taken to that Land far, far away... ORGOCH: Great! I gotta friend named Shrek I'd be glad ta fix ya up with. ANYTHING ta git ya outta the same place where I lives!!!
Originally Posted By mawnck >>It often seems that OTHER studio's manage to capture an old world flavor to their period pieces better than Disney does.<< Examples, please? Genuinely curious. Because I can't think of a single example without similar lapses. (Though I admit, my crystal ball doesn't pick up that much live action.)
Originally Posted By leemac Am I missing the point here? It is irrelevant whether it has always been that way - it is wrong to do it for an audience on first run. Frozen and Tangled were both supposed to be "timeless" - no specific time period but definitely not of now or even recent times (no snowmobiles!). I don't particularly care at this present moment in time whether it will be perceived differently by future audience - I care about how the jarring modern day speak pulls me out of the moment. It was far worse in Tangled (Mandy Moore is no Kirsten Bell or Idina Menzel) I should add.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: To answer your question, mawnck, duckling, the first film that comes to mind--for us--is Lord of the Rings, as a period piece that doesn't use quite so much modern 'lingo'. (At least we can't think of any at the moment.) ORWEN: I sure agree with what you're saying, leemac, duckling. The last thing I want to be reminded of while watching a fairy tale is anything having to do with the modern world. The way characters speak is VERY important because, otherwise, you just have a bunch of modern type characters running around in period costumes and period settings that come across like they're just PRETENDING to be from another era.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORWEN: Snow White & the Huntsman seemed to do a good job of keeping the characters away from the modern world--in terms of how they talked, at least. So that's another recent period piece done by another studio that at least TRIED to have the characters talk in a way that wasn't full of modern slang.
Originally Posted By dagobert Since the cinema isn't going to show the OV of Frozen, I have to watch the German dubbed version. Now I'm really interested how the characters will speak and if they will use a modern style. Disney is getting worse and worse from year to year when it comes to dubbing the movies into German. So I expect the worst.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Am I missing the point here? > No, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with the point. I think it would have been a minor net plus to ditch the modern lingo; what we're saying is that Disney has always done it, and in decades hence people don't even realize it. They THINK all the lingo in Pinocchio is timeless, even though some of it was then-current slang, simply because that then-current slang has become part of the vernacular.
Originally Posted By mawnck I fully endorse post 74. And thanks, Witches, for answering. You're right … although I would respectfully argue that the two properties you referred to are aimed at a very different audience. It would be nice to think that your typical tween-ager would be fine with a Princess that doesn't throw around current catch phrases, but I'm just not so sure that's the case. They have to identify with the lead character or the story won't work. Using stilted, old-fashioned language would work against that … and it would still be the 2013 version of stilted and old fashioned. You can't escape 2013, at least not for another few weeks, no matter how hard you try. (As the animators on "Get a Horse" found out.) The question becomes where do you draw the line. Take it to the extreme, and everybody should be speaking in 19th century Norwegian (with Russian accents?). I guarantee you it wouldn't be doing as well at the box office if that were the case.
Originally Posted By leemac <<The question becomes where do you draw the line. Take it to the extreme, and everybody should be speaking in 19th century Norwegian (with Russian accents?). I guarantee you it wouldn't be doing as well at the box office if that were the case.>> I don't ever remember thinking that Ariel, Belle or Quasimodo ever sounded DCA hip - am I wrong? Aladdin and Hercules were more current but that was entirely the point. It is a relatively minor quibble I know but it can have a very negative effect. Ghibli fare never resorts to slang and seems to work just fine. Did How To Train Your Dragon have a more colloquial script? It is the only DWA feature I've seen and I don't recall it well.
Originally Posted By TheRedhead I remember seeing Little Mermaid in the theater and thinking it was weird to hear a princess say 'daddy'. It's not a bad thing, and the word may be 1000 years old for all I know, but it sounded slangy. Most of her dialogue sounds like fairly typical 80s teenager. But I'm fine cuz I was also an 80s teen. I see the specific use of modern phrases for Anna less as lazy screenwriting and more of a striking way to distinguish her from Elsa. Elsa's talk is rather timeless (though that might be just from the score, which I've listened to a billion times now). Anna is goofy kid, juxtaposing too-casual phrases against serious moments - she talks like she's in an episode of Buffy (which is a compliment). The language sets them apart. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: My sisters and I just finished watching FROZEN and have to say this movie was just LOADED with modern slang and it was jarring to say the least. While the story was very good and kept us interested, it didn't quite make us feel as though we were in a fairy tale. We kept being reminded of people and situations we know in the modern world way too much and that's the one negative where current Disney fairy tales are concerned. ORWEN: Of course we can understand why this might not bother a younger generation so much. It often seems that the younger generation is fine with being reminded of the real world--even while watching a fairy tale. It just comes down to a matter of preference. ORDDU: I thought the songs for this movie were very mediocre, by the way. Nothing stands out for us. But, then, we also weren't very fond of the song writers who wrote for Animal Kingdom's Nemo stage show and they were the same composers for FROZEN. If only Alan Menken were back writing songs for Disney movies again...
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Ghibli fare never resorts to slang<< How could we tell? It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure the English soundtracks did. >>Did How To Train Your Dragon have a more colloquial script?<< Oh good gosh did it ever!
Originally Posted By basil fan >>Am I missing the point here? My point, and I'm sorry I didn't make it clearer, is that, as has been pointed out, the complaints about contemporary dialogue in Frozen or any other modern movie could equally be laid against Snow White, Pinocchio, or any of Disney's earliest animated features. Therefore, unless you think the dialogue in those films is also faulty, it is not a just criticism. Now, perhaps you also find it a flaw in Snow White et al. In that case, it is a legitimate complaint. A Christmas Carol Quiz <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.whatsitsgalore.com/etc/christmas.html">http://www.whatsitsgalore.com/...mas.html</a>
