Originally Posted By -em As I was leaving work at about 11 pm Christmas Eve- I encountered a sight that still has me mystified and livid and after hearing others views on the subject on another board figured I'd ask here... So as I was leaving I encountered the typical crowd of guests at the 'temp/MK crosswalk (who were crossing against the light- but sadly typical) but then I noticed dozen and dozens of guests streaming out of the other side of the road walking both in the road, attempting to cross the road, and walking around and in front of the busses that were trying to exit the lot. I then got the experience of trying to drive around the hoards of guests who apparently were treking to the TTC on a no sidewalk/not pedestrian lit/wet road. As I slowly proceeded by pretty much going at a dead crawl (took me 15 min to get past the TTC)as I kept having guests dart in front of the car. It was a very steady stream of guests all the way down. 2 Sheriff units were at the TTC/Lodge entrance but not appearing to control anything... I kept thinking something big must have happened but turns out there was "no transportation issues" well IMO there WAS an issue cause that frankly is unacceptable (and dangerous!) and so the question? Is it the guests fault for not being appropriately patient? or was it WDWs fault for not being (apparently) appropriately prepared for a crowded park exit? and why did WDW let it escalate to the point of allowing upwards of 200+ guests WALK to the TTC (or at the absolute least not allow traffic down that road if that is the only answer) Thoughts? -em
Originally Posted By disney pete I think both of them are too blame Em firstly Disney in allowing this but secondly and more importantly the guests themselves for walking in this unsafe manner especially after what happened with the old guy getting knocked over and dying the other day
Originally Posted By hopemax There is that old story about the guests trampling the flower beds at Disneyland, and operations people ripping on the misbehaving guests, and Walt saying the answer was a pathway needed to be there. You can't expect a mass of people to "do the right thing" anymore than you can ask a river to flow right instead of left. And Disney KNOWS this, and built a reputation on being the masters of this. However, I've seen many failures during the so-called off-season, that my initial reaction to that Disney has allowed itself to become "stretched to thin" for awhile, and you can get away with it up until the point you can't, and its always at these pressure points where the failures finally occur. Whether its too few buses, drivers, too many people that 'take their own sweet time,' 'not my problem' or unwilling or unable to recognize when something is building. Security stretched to thin to be able to get out there and direct people back to where they are supposed to be, etc. First week of December, my parents were trying to get from the MK to the Studios for the Osborne Lights. They went to the TTC to catch the bus, and waited 45 minutes. Finally, a transportation manager came out and asked, "what are you people waiting for?" With a distinct flavor of "this area is obviously closed for the night, how can I get rid of you." When the people answered, bus to the Studios for Osbourne and the normally scheduled Fantasmic!, the manager responded with shock. My parents had the impression that the manager was totally unaware of the Studios schedule; the person did order additional buses. But why should that have happened in the first place? This is after my June visit, when the monorail line got hit by lightening because of a bad rain storm. We were stuck at GF, the nice CM's at the platform told us to go the bus stop and additional buses would be sent to take us to the MK. Another 45 min wait, no buses, several managers acting totally oblivious to the growing mass of people. When a bus showed up, the driver was totally unprepared as to why there was 3 buses worth of people trying to get on his bus. Then when he dropped us back at the TTC (when we were told that we would be taken to the MK) there was no one there to tell us that we needed to go around the building to where there were MK buses. I am sure that 4/5ths of the bus went to try to board the monorail again because they didn't know this bus was there. We only knew because my Mom works at the TTC gift shop. Then a couple of people followed us. The driver at the GF, should have been told on the radio, "monorail down, extra people at bus stop, instruct how to get to the MK." Someone, and it only needed to be one person, should have been meeting the buses with displaced guests and given instruction on where to go. But based on these two instances, I have no faith that Disney transportation knows how to adequately handle crowds anymore. They have a budget that is big enough to staff X number of buses, with X number of people, and have X number of buses on route A, B, C. But I no longer trust that if it would take 10 buses, and they only have budget for 7, that they would staff at 10. And even more discouraging is what happens (or doesn't happen) when a manager is brought into the situation. More often then not, the vibe they give off is not, "How can I fix this," but "not my problem." If masses of people were trying to walk on the roadway, Disney was improperly staffed. The thing that pops into my head is when the airlines would strand people on planes at the gate or tarmac, and then get mad at the people for getting angry because, "Obviously, when there is a weather emergency THEY can't do anything and people just need to be patient."
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<stretched to thin>> A term that can be attributed to the entire WDW resort, IMO.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 People are stupid, Em. Worse by the day. I don't have to tell a WDW CM this, naturally. BUT ... the fact that people behave stupidly and dangerously (both to themselves and others) does not change the fact that the responsibility is all on the Mouse when it comes to safety issues. And this is just another case of how cutbacks in staffing/budgets leaves the place as a disaster when things get busy. They simply can't/won't deal with it. Much easier for Meg Crofton to put out a press release if something bad happens. To be simple about it, if I throw a party and get a larger crowd than I planned (or than I have set $$$ aside to cover) it does not negate my responsibilities as a host to above all have a safe environment. Sounds like a magical Christmas Eve at WDW, Em.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer Both. People should use common sense and wait to cross, and WDW should take measures for these busy times. Society is what it is, so neither gets done.
Originally Posted By barboy2 There are 3 Disney lessons to be learned here: 1)BUSES, as a main transportation source, SUCK 2)this is what you get when you build hotels and parks so damn far apart 3)when 1/2 of mankind descends into one place for 2 weeks one should expect chaos and accept it
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>2)this is what you get when you build hotels and parks so damn far apart<<< I don't think that's an issue... The blessing of size and all. ;-) But I agree with #1... Busses do suck. We need Monorails/WEDWays/Whatever to move people around efficiently. As was planned, so the distances between hotels and parks wouldn't matter.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Group Mentality. Really hard to blame the people, we all fall into it when in very large crowds. However, they should be responsible. Also agree that Disney should have been prepared for this, to herd in the group mentality.
Originally Posted By -em One thing- Since the masses were walking towards the TTC makes me think it wasn't necessarily a BUS problem... Unless the busses were so bad resort guests crowded the 'rails and boats to get to the TTC to catch another park bus to connect but that seems unlikely... -em
Originally Posted By A Happy Haunt <<People are stupid, Em. >> We knew that! the more people, the more stupid! it's the ol' mob mentality
Originally Posted By standor Lots of guests at WDW act like animals. We were watching the MSEP a few months ago and when the parade was over, cast members with brooms were cleaning up a mess. You never used to see this in the 70s, eighties and early 90s.
Originally Posted By brotherdave Screamscape reported that the Ferry Boats were down that night, which is probably a huge reason for the situation. Question is, why were they down that night??? My guess is that there must have been a problem at one of the docks for them to shut down ferry service that evening, but that's only a guess. Does anyone know anything more about it???
Originally Posted By hopemax See, now if something like that actually happened, additional buses should have been made available to pick up the slack. Which would have required knowing where you could remove buses from the system elsewhere that would have had the least impact, and probably overtime for some drivers. And I'm not sure if I trust that Disney is able or willing to do that. You would need managers that are familiar with transportation systems and have the authority to make the call. And from what I hear, more often than probably should happen managers are promoted for their ability to do things like keep operational costs under control, not for the ability to keep the system functioning smoothly.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 Oh come on, in the average "guests" mind, they pay soooo much to be there that they have the right to walk where ever they want. After they plunk down $$$$ their brains fly out the window. Sorry, I had to deal with a couple morons on the phone today.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 The fact that people are stupid, boorish or slovenly has no point in this discussion. They are givens. What is important is that TDO has a responsibility to put safety above all other factors and spend the $$$ needed to make things as safe as possible. Clearly they dropped the ball here and did so bigtime. If they had enough transportation running and enough cast for crowd control, so guests didn't just stampede roads without pedestrian walks, then this situation wouldn't have happened. It's very simple. You run an enterprise like WDW, you assume that all people are stupid (or are capable of great acts of stupidity while on vacation), and you take great efforts to make sure they don't hurt themselves, others and your reputation and bottom line. Or you just plant a story in the NY Times making Phil Holmes out to be a great guy and let the rubes stampede in the streets! Can you feel the MAGIC?
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Oh come on, in the average "guests" mind, they pay soooo much to be there that they have the right to walk where ever they want. After they plunk down $$$$ their brains fly out the window. Sorry, I had to deal with a couple morons on the phone today.<<< Don't be sorry, you are 100% right. >>>Or you just plant a story in the NY Times making Phil Holmes out to be a great guy and let the rubes stampede in the streets!<<< Ironically as that Disneyland piece, that you keep quoting, runs.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 >>>Or you just plant a story in the NY Times making Phil Holmes out to be a great guy and let the rubes stampede in the streets!<<< <<Ironically as that Disneyland piece, that you keep quoting, runs. >> Yeah, Disney had no control of that. Barnes is a very interesting dude, who like many in media has written his own past. It is well known in LA media circles that he places stories and writes off of press releases regularly. The timing of his piece and Rich's column is just an interesting coincidence. "America can’t move forward until we once again believe...that everyone can enter Frontierland if they try hard enough, and that no one will be denied a dream because a private party has rented out Tomorrowland." Frank Rich, NY Times
Originally Posted By sjhym333 One of the problems is how to react when something goes down. Where do you get more buses from? Which beam do you pull a monorail from to increase capacity somewhere else. Of course I remember driving tram loads of guest from TTC to the MK in the morning and back in the evening during busy times like Christmas, Easter and July 4th. Those were the days. Of course you had to pray that you could make it back up the hill after you went under the water bridge with a tram full of guests.
