Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I am also not so cynical as to think they don't care about guest experience.<< I agree. I don't think they're evil. Disney still provides top notch customer service almost always. Part of the reason so many people are flocking to the parks is because the guest experience, in spite of the crowds, remains good. It's a catch 22. If the parks were less crowded, the experience would be better. But without the crowds, there is little reason to enhance shows and attractions.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I think the massive rebuild of DCA showed that.<< But the massive rebuild of DCA was because...wait for it...DCA wasn't that crowded because it wasn't that popular. Now it is. Disney can't be faulted for thinking that massive crowds means they're doing something right. We equate massive crowds with a reduced guest experience. But why would Disney? If the massive crowds were creating a bad experience, then no one would come to Disneyland anymore. That's clearly not happening.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA Having worked in Guest Relations at WDW, trust me, they know. From the lead working City Hall to Bob Iger, they know what 'The Disney Experience' is and is not. When things aren't right - be it overflowing trash cans, chipped paint, or a cranky Cast Member, those things (and others that got in the way of a great experience) were all considered 'bad show.' Huge, bumper-to-bumper crowds, with no relief during a long day, it's 'bad show.' And I'm sure top men are working on it right now. Who? Top. Men.
Originally Posted By hbquikcomjamesl The ideal situation would be to have both parks at the maximum number of guests they can handle without "bad show" overcrowding. Thus, the presumptive goal is to shift warm bodies from peak days to non-peak days. That's why there are multiple levels of annual passes, with the least expensive ones having most of the busiest days blacked out. That's why, at one time, there was a "3 season pass" that was good during the three slackest months of the year. That's why there are days when local residents can get in at a significant discount. And as to unlimited use tags in the last decade of the ticket book era, availability did vary, just as the types of ticket books varied. At one point, the Magic Kingdom Club ticket media (and if you were a civil servant, or worked for any of several large corporations, or at one point, if you were a member of the Auto Club, you could get a MKC card, and you could probably get them for friends and family, too) would have two extra tickets during peak periods, or would be all-E ("Magic Key") tickets that could be used for any attraction in the park. But as unlimited use tags began to be phased in, they replaced the MKC books. Personally, I'd love to see DL, DCA, and WDW-MK go back to ticket books, but I know that (to paraphrase Tom Snyder) out of the five chances for that ever happening, "Slim," "Fat," "Snowball in H***," and a certain Asian fellow, have all left the country.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <And as to unlimited use tags in the last decade of the ticket book era, availability did vary, just as the types of ticket books varied. At one point, the Magic Kingdom Club ticket media (and if you were a civil servant, or worked for any of several large corporations, or at one point, if you were a member of the Auto Club, you could get a MKC card, and you could probably get them for friends and family, too) would have two extra tickets during peak periods, or would be all-E ("Magic Key") tickets that could be used for any attraction in the park. But as unlimited use tags began to be phased in, they replaced the MKC books.> My family belonged to the MKC. I still have the only issues of "Disney News" to prove it. And yeah, the magic key books (and 2-extra-ticket books during the summer) were great. But that's ALL you could get through the 70's. You could only get the unlimited pass a year or two before tickets went away entirely, not the last decade before. Unless you were at a special corporate thing like General Dynamics Day. Otherwise, the great unwashed, even the MKC-annointed, had to deal with tickets.
Originally Posted By hbquikcomjamesl I remember seeing unlimted use tags in use at DL for more than "the last couple of years" of the ticket book era. And I think I remember Knotts offering them before DL started offering them. Ticket books would definitely help get people into the less-popular attractions while easing crowds at the most popular ones, and reduce the GA price for those who are just there for the ambiance, or the food, or the parades, or the dance bands, or who are just there for a couple hours after work, but it would require at least one additional CM per ticketed attraction, and there would be too much resistance from people who grew up on unlimited use, and aren't satisfied unless they hit every E-ticket at least once on every single visit. (Then again, it's precisely BECAUSE of the high prices and no alternative to unlimited use that so many people feel they have to hit all the E-tickets at least once per visit). Hmm. As I recall, my first year without a pass, I needed to go into DL to buy a friend a Christmas present that was only sold at the gift shop in Critter Country. And they offered "shopping passes," that allowed you a full refund of your admission, so long as you were in and out in a specified amount of time, and could show a receipt for a certain minimum purchase completed during that time. Anybody know if they still offer something of that nature?
Originally Posted By monorailblue The 2-hour shopping passes were discontinued about 15 years ago, IIRC.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I remember seeing unlimted use tags in use at DL for more than "the last couple of years" of the ticket book era.> If you did, they were mix-in corporate things. They were not available at the front gate ticket booths. I have MKC magazines through the 70's and guidebooks too that list the ticket media available to the general public. Unlimited use tags were not available into the summer of 1980 at least (what I'm looking at now). <And I think I remember Knotts offering them before DL started offering them.> That may be possible and I can't speak to that. They didn't have them in 1977 (or we'd have gotten them), but there was a gap in my KBF visits from then till the mid-80's.
Originally Posted By monorailblue Unrelated, but you made me think of it: my youthful, exuberant Disneyland heyday was mid-80s to mid-90s. I would collect, routinely, as many guidebooks as I could. Eventually, I realized that I needed to downsize, so I kept 2-3 of each unique or updated version, and recycled the rest. I think I tossed more than 1,400 of them.
Originally Posted By hbquikcomjamesl Regarding Knotts, ticket books, and unlimited use tags: For a lot of years, even after Ghost Town was fenced and gated, they didn't bother with ticket books, because there weren't that many ticketed attractions: watching the blacksmith at work was free, and so were the old buildings set up as dioramas, and so were the mock gun battles in the streets, and the can-can show in the saloon. The only ticketed attractions I remember from that far back were the train, the stagecoach, Old McDonald's Farm, an electric-powered, tracked, "antique auto" ride, and maybe shows at the Birdcage Theatre. And they had actual San Francisco Cable Cars (with the grips removed, and battery powered traction motors installed) running in the parking lot, and they had the "Lagoon Rides" audio plays in the Independence Hall replica, and "Jungle Island," all across Beach Blvd and ungated. Then they added the Calico Mine Train (their first dark ride), and the Log Ride (their first thrill ride, one of the first log-flume rides, and possibly the first heavily themed thrill ride), and Fiesta Village, and offered the "Bonanza Fun Book" (a title that sounded more like a coloring book than a ticket book) for purchase at any ticket booth. Then, as the number of ticketed attractions grew, they went from the two-tiered Bonanza Fun Book to the four-tiered Super Bonanza Book, that came with park admission. Then they added unlimited use tags, and eliminated general admission (which discriminated against those who were NOT there to ride everything in sight). DL at least continued to offer general admission up to the day they went to all unlimited use, and when they did go to all unlimited use, they offered a program by which unused attraction tickets could be turned in for credit on unlimited use admissions.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <an electric-powered, tracked, "antique auto" ride, > They had that, located in the main part of the park, and they also had the un-tracked (well, dirt track with no rail) "Henry's Auto Livery," located outside the main area. I loved that because of the no-rail, and that definitely had its own charge for riding. I believe it might even have been a separately-owned concession (i.e. not owned by the Knotts family). This postcard shows it from all the way back in 1957! <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.ebay.com/itm/Postcard-Henrys-Auto-Livery-1957-Knotts-Berry-Farm-54/161980693279?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D35851%26meid%3D1dff28407b744263aede97b9a3224121%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D151561186360">http://www.ebay.com/itm/Postca...61186360</a>
Originally Posted By monorailblue Disney's redemption program for unused, unexpired tickets remains in effect, insofar as I have been able to determine. For the first 45 or so years, tickets (ride or admission) had no expirations. They can still be applied at face value to current admission media, I do believe. (Starting in the late 90's, those pesky expiration dates began to appear. I had some 1995 CM comp tickets with no expiration, but by 1999, they all had expirations. Expired tickets cannot be applied to new ones.)
Originally Posted By ecdc <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://micechat.com/121682-opinion-squeezed-out-of-disneyland/">http://micechat.com/121682-opi...neyland/</a> This editorial at Mice Chat is not wrong. Not even a little bit. And based on the comments it's really struck a nerve. It's definitely how I feel. I kept saying it was too expensive and too crowded, but it took an overwhelmingly negative experience with the crowds last Dec. to convince me. There's lots of good stuff in here, but this is especially on point: >>Won’t other people do what I do [and stop going]? Won’t all this cause them to lose more customers like me? Yes, and no. There are a lot of people in this world that they can run through their turnstiles one time and never again. There are a lot of people buying those $42 a month passports every year. They don’t need my individual contribution. The population as a whole will more than make up for the few who become disaffected by their pricing and crowds. They’re the biggest entertainment company on the planet; me and my few bucks mean basically nothing to them.<< I think this is the biggest myth out there: if it gets too crowded people will stop going and it'll hurt Disney. Except APs are a bargain and people will keep buying them. People like me will stop going, but in my place are another thousand who've never been who will buy their one-day or three-day tickets. Behind me and my family of two teenagers is my younger brother with his 3 and 5 year old who can't wait to go next year.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 The author of that is jonvn (as he used to be known here,) by the way. And he's not wrong. I was there about a week after you were in December, and the crowds were nuts. I still had a good time, and I haven't quite reached the point that you and he have, but I understand where he's coming from nonetheless. It's like I've said here for a long time: we may see a packed-to-the-gills park as a problem, but there's nothing to indicate that Disney sees it that way - quite the contrary.
Originally Posted By ecdc Yeah I noticed it was jonvn! That was cool. >>the crowds were nuts. I still had a good time, and I haven't quite reached the point that you and he have, but I understand where he's coming from nonetheless.<< I think it's all about expectations. We knew it might be a little bit busier, but we were not prepared to constantly be directed to the right tunnel, then shuffled backstage over and over again. Like some of the commenters on the article said, I don't mind waiting in line. I can always choose to wait or not. But not being able to even move around the park is insane. I'm sure I'll be in L.A. sometime and I'll buy a single-day pass to go check out Star Wars Land or some other change. But that's it for me and Disneyland. Multi-day resort vacations are over.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <We knew it might be a little bit busier, but we were not prepared to constantly be directed to the right tunnel, then shuffled backstage over and over again.> Wow - that sounds worse than when I was there, even. Were you there on Candlelight Procession nights?
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Were you there on Candlelight Procession nights?<< Yeah that was part of it. But it was still the case another day without the Procession. We've been there during the candlelight procession before without anything like this. In fact, this is the time of year we've gone the most frequently. We did hear that in recent years the procession has grown in popularity. Epic understatement
Originally Posted By doombuggy I said last year when PTN came out it would be a crowd nightmare...and it is. EVERY NIGHT if you dare to enter near show time it's like swimming up stream. The first parade comes then the flood of people to see the fireworks makes it unmoveable. They make you use the tunnel then heard you thur tomorrowland and that bottle neck. It's so bad we don't go in till after the fireworks are over if we visit at night. I have to say it is so nice not having Fantazmic showing you can walk again on the west side. There are too many night shows too close together for how crowed it is.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>There are too many night shows too close together for how crowed it is.<< There it is. We realized, "Oh, Candlelight Procession has gotten really popular, so tomorrow, let's schedule our time with that in mind and be in DCA when it's going on." We do. We go long after it's over. Still directed to the right tunnel, still shuffled backstage, this time for a parade. The next night it was for fireworks. Okay, let's head over to Frontierland to--oops! Fantasmic. I know I sound like a broken record and the day will come when I stop harping on this, but it was such a shocking experience for us that resembled in no way, shape, or form our past times at DL, that it's hard to reconcile the crowds with the fact that we're now overall paying more than double what we did when we first started going to DL regularly 14-15 years ago. At some point, you just feel like a sucker.
