Originally Posted By traintracks hi, folks. i haven't been here in awhile, mostly because i have moved from san diego to new york and get depressed whenever i see anything about disneyland. but for some reason, when i was daydreaming about the park at work, i thought of this question... anaheim disneyland is obviously short of land for expansion, to combat this, how would a second story in some parts do? i was thinking in the vein of space mountain/arcade, but with better show and theme. i haven't really thought this through, or begun to think where this could take place, but if careful construction and incredible creativity were used rides/attractions could be constructed on top of other ride/attractions. i could be way off here, but after visiting WDW and seeing the advantage of space that they have, i wanted to give anaheim a chance. any takers?
Originally Posted By oc_dean Since Tomorrowland II: "A World On The Move" was on the drawing boards in 1965 .. Tomorrowland has been drawn up countless times to be all 2-tier. Will they try again? No one knows. As for other parts of DL ... Pretty much all of New Orleans Square is built on top of story underneath - ala WDW. I've always envisioned Fantasyland to have a vast underground .. that could be host to a variety of attractions involving the large list of Disney villains. But I think in the end ... there's too many logistics against double-decking all of Disneyland. - Earthquakes - required space for a number of emergency exits - cost - Not willing to tear down historic items throughout the park - even if they were to be rebuilt. - redirecting traffic throughout such a massive reworking. Anyway ... I think they could double-deck in the area of "Festival of Fools" arena. And perhaps Tomorrowland. But I feel .. that's about it. Fantasyland would be such a great idea, but that would entail taking the castle down .. along with the rest of Fantasyland which has been there since the 1982 remodel.
Originally Posted By SafariRob I like the way you think, traintracks. Unfortunately, I don't think the end result would be very desirable. oc_dean brings up some very good points. I would add that Disneyland doesn't really have the infrastructure to support the additional foot traffic created by adding new attractions on top of old ones. Adventureland became bottlenecked after Indy was added. Six Flags Marine World (now Discovery Kingdom) has a huge problem moving people in certain areas because the park was never intended to support roller coasters and the crowds that come with them. Disney would have to extend the boundaries of the park itself if they wanted to do some serious expansion. I heard a rumor that Tomorrowland might be expanded all the way to Harbor Blvd. In addition, they could re-claim some backstage areas (like they did with Toontown and Big Thunder Ranch). Their best bet is to concentrate on Disneyland's neighbor, DCA...which is what they appear to be doing. I think we will eventually see a third park, but not any time soon.
Originally Posted By Mort2 Decades ago when I first saw the model for WESTCOT I would have sworn it used a two-story hub layout. Never had a chance to confirm that observation with anyone who could verify it.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros I really don't think that the extra cost to allow for earthquake designs and exits are really that big of a factor with them making multi-story structures. The show buildings for Splash Mountain and Indiana Jones (the last two major new construction projects in DL) are two stories and seem to work just fine. I know it's a little different when you're working with seperate attraction on each floor, but it can be done for a reasonable costs. There are multi-floor buildings built all the time all over Southern California that have to deal with the exact same requirements that DL would encounter, without any problems. As for traffic, I could see how that might be an issue. However, if the entrances to the attractions were spread out a little bit (like how Mr Toad and Alice share the same space but you can't even see one from the other), I don't think it would be too big of a problem. If they were to put in a multi-story project into the Big Thunder Ranch area, with an entrance to one attraction near Fantasyland (or even as part of Fantasyland), and the other(s) in Frontierland near where the cabin is now, I don't see how the traffic in that area would be much worse than in other parts of the park. The main entrance area might get more traffic, but I think DL has pretty much maxed out its capacity, so adding a couple more attractions won't really mean adding a ton more people to the park on busy days (they might allow in a few thousand more, which wouldn't really affect things too much). Depending on where they did the additions, they could even increase the capacity of the park. If they added a land or two being the Rivers of America to connect Critter Country to Toontown (and possibly even the ranch area), I think that would really help alleviate congestion all over the west side of the park. Instead of the whole side leading to a dead end and everybody having to turn around, it could be a much more circular flow between areas, similar to the area between Tomorrowland and Fantasyland. I know Main Street can only handle so many guests at once, but I feel like if they were wise about their additions and thinking toward the future, they could easily add more people to the park, all while making it feel like there are fewer people there.
Originally Posted By DlandDug Traffic is the crucial issue here. There is an approved plan to "double deck" the area currently occupied by the River Belle Terrace and its support facilities. This will visually relate to New Orleans Square, and will allow second floor dining overlooking the Rivers of America and Fantasmic! Disneyland does have a few basement areas that provide access as well as support facilities. The most extensive is under New Orleans Square, which holds kitchens, store rooms, and access. Pirates of the Caribbean is also a true two story attraction, with a great deal underground. There is a tunnel under Tomorrowland that connects the Buzz Lightyear building to the Carousel Theater, and provides access to the Tomorrowland Terrace Stage at the basement level. Fantasyland also has a good sized area with control rooms, but nothing all that extensive. Incidently, the Westcot proposal did, indeed, have a two story hub. World Showcase would have occupied the upper level, and Future World would have been in a lower level, accessed below the central icon. One reason this scheme was abandoned was because of the initial cost to create the entire infrastructure.
Originally Posted By bean "2 oc_dean Sat 10/25/2008 2:08p Since Tomorrowland II: "A World On The Move" was on the drawing boards in 1965 .. Tomorrowland has been drawn up countless times to be all 2-tier. Will they try again? No one knows. " look to the east then to the west some pixie dust is floating with the wind
Originally Posted By oc_dean Well bean ... it almost happened with TL:2055 ... So if Tony Baxter is giving it another shot .. that's good news. You figure ... the Space Mountain complex is the beginning. Now .. it's a matter of that "pixie dust" continuing northward into the rest of the land. Makes me wonder though if the carousel theater is still part of the future picture - beyond Innoventions. Since that has an upper deck.
Originally Posted By ArchtMig >>>look to the east then to the west some pixie dust is floating with the wind <<< Oh great. Sci Fi City. Just what we need, another washed out copy of a concept that is originally intended for a foreign park.
Originally Posted By ArchtMig Here's what ScreamScape has to say about it: >>>2010-2012 - New Tomorrowland - Rumor - (10/22/08) With the new Monsters Inc. attraction on the horizon for 2009, many have wondered just what was next for Tokyo Disneyland. Apparently the Imagineers have been hard at work coming up with ideas for a massive remodel of the rest of Tomorrowland. This isn’t the first time Tokyo has wanted to create a Tomorrowland 2.0… way back before Tokyo DisneySea was announced they were looking at creating a very high-tech neon-filled stylized concept that was nicknamed Sci-Fi City, one concept of which was Cyber-Mid, a clone of Rock ‘n Roller Coaster enclosed in a giant neon pyramid with the storyline that guests would be beamed into the chaos of the internet. A fun aspect of this from what I was told was that the launch tunnel would feature a visual effect for the spectators that might remind you of the old Adventures through Inner Space ride at Disneyland, where the coaster train would pass through a device to be visually broken up into raw energy, focused into a beam and shot into the ‘Net. There is no telling if the new concepts will bring this attraction back to life or not, but from what I’ve heard the overall plan is that once they are done the only existing attractions in Tomorrowland that will be left untouched is Buzz Lightyear. Space Mountain may finally get it’s long overdue soundtrack and the Autopia may get a dramatic update moving from just a simple car ride to something with electric cars that may actually have a story as well as an overlord control system that would bring you car to a stop briefly in certain areas to view some kind scene before giving you back control. Then there is the long in development Star Tours 2 project that will be rolled out to all the parks when it is ready. And then there is Microadventure… known elsewhere as Honey, I Shrunk The Audience. From what I’ve heard the theater will be redesigned to add some kind of new 3D show that will also include live action segments, possibily an evolution from the concepts used in the Aladdin show at DisneySea. While a new version of the Rocket Jets is also being looked at, they project isn’t just about new rides, as new shops and restaurants are also planned along with the concept of possibility of building the area up to become a two level environment. Finally, there is the unknown E factor… as in Wall-E. Plans are said to be in development for a few Wall-E attraction concepts, one of which may also include a restaurant. The kicker is waiting to see just how well Wall-E is received in Japan since the film wont open there until December. That said, this project could open anywhere between 2010-2012, or may actually open in phases over all three years.<<< They end their post with this: >>>For everyone feeling left out in the USA, don’t feel bad yet as many of these same concepts are also being looked at for the next version of Tomorrowland in California as well as attractions for the other parks around the world. So for now think of Tokyo as your crystal ball to the future.<<< See what I mean? That's exactly what I've been saying, and what I fear. A concept that will be totally "tricked out" for Tokyo Disneyland, and much later some of it's same elements may be "trickled down" to Disneyland Anaheim. And, he speculates, "other parks around the world". Well, WDW Magic Kingdom's Tomorrowland redo wasn't a disastrous flop like Disneyland's, so they don't need another redo. And Paris' Discoveryland was spectacular from day one, and became the model for the stateside redos, so Paris doesn't need another redo. Hong Kong's is brand new - you'd think they'd do it up right straight out of the blocks, hopefully having learned their lesson from DCA and DSP, yes? So no need for a redo there. That leaves us back full circle: Disneyland Anaheim. I just don't understand why Original Disneyland can't have an original Tomorrowland theme. Didn't they already try adapting some other crapcan theme from a foreign park and blowing it here? Why oh why do they have to do it again?? It makes me sick.
Originally Posted By -PLP- A second story would possibly offer views of the outside world and Walt did not want any outside influences disturbing the show.
Originally Posted By oc_dean But Walt did commission his artists to come up with conceptual artwork for "TL:67" to be 2 stories in drawings dating around 1964 and 1965. Wish I had some examples for you ... maybe I can find something. Plus ... if you stood in line for Space Mountain on that top deck .. or from the exit of Innoventions on that top floor .. you really don't see "outside influences". What we do see .. are the exhaust ports and ventilation systems for Coke Terrace. If they go through with a double-decked Tomorrowland ... Coke Terrace would get the 2nd story treatment. And if I can find my pic of TL:2055 .. you can see that for yourself.
Originally Posted By oc_dean Like you too Archtmig ... if Disneyland's Tomorrowland is to be a near clone of Tokyo's ... I won't be thrilled. This is the fourth time WDI - FOURTH ATTEMPT - to give Tomorrowland a proper renovation (1st 1984,2nd TL:2055, 3rd TL:98). Can they get it right for a change! I mean .. really get it right! This has only been going on for a quarter of a century. Just a QUARTER CENTURY - that's all! NO MORE CLONING. Make "Walt's Original" original, please. If this is your last major project for WDI Mr. Baxter before you decide to retire .. please make it special to DL Anaheim.
Originally Posted By Anatole69 I have to agree. I'm not too thrilled if the design plans are a simple clone. I don't mind if they are influenced by TDL as long as the influence is only in the concept, not in the details... but it would be disappointing to me if DL got a cloned version straight from Tokyo. It would just come off as more cost cutting from the management. - Anatole
Originally Posted By bean One of the advantages of working on the Japan project and the Anaheim project at the same time is that OLC is investing a uge amount of money on R and D for the new tomorrowland. If the projetc continues on track then that R and D is then used for the Anaheim project. This does not mean that both projects would be identical but some of the new attractions as well as the revamped ones oculd use the same technology. Besides everyone seems to apreciate the elaborate attractions that OLC funds. Anaheim would benefit from getting some of those built here. The big question would be WIll Anaheim also get another big indoor coaster in tomorrowland similiar to the one being discussed for tokyo?
Originally Posted By bean "11 NEW! -PLP- Wed 10/29/2008 10:52a A second story would possibly offer views of the outside world and Walt did not want any outside influences disturbing the show. " a second level in tomorrowland can be easily accomplished without destroying the views. The land already has several areas that are in a second level. 1) space mountain queue 2) the original peoplemover loading area 3) the second floor balcony/exit of innoventions 4) the old sky bucket loading area 5) the monorail queue 6) the Autopia queue even when the rocket jets were up on the third level platform the views to the outside were confined by the structures around the area
Originally Posted By ArchtMig >>>One of the advantages of working on the Japan project and the Anaheim project at the same time is that OLC is investing a uge amount of money on R and D for the new tomorrowland.<<< R&D... that's rich. WHAT kind of R&D does it take to copy the exterior themeing of the buildings and the color schemes and all the fiberglass doodads that they stick on the facades and peoplemover track and whatnot to make the whole place look "sci fi city"?? Whatever "R&D" went into making DLP Discoveryland look awesome, and WDW Tomorrowland look pretty good, was lost on Disneyland when all they did was pull down the Rocket Jets, turn the mechanism into a stupid spinning object that never worked as promised, ripped out the perfectly fine running PeopleMover and put in an ill conceived speed ride with no story that kept breaking down and had to be ripped out within a year. They painted Space Mountain poop brown, thinking it was going to look "just like" the dimensionally themed and decorated version in Paris, they stuccoed up the America Sings building, and they slapped on glitter paint on all the rest. Oh and, they planted bushes that are edible. And it takes R&D for THAT?? Give me a break! >>>This does not mean that both projects would be identical...<<< Let's all agree on one thing... if TDL's Tomorrowland gets the Sci Fi City overlay, then Disneyland's will too... almost exactly the same conceptual theming as Tokyo's to the extent that the individual buildings and layouts will allow, and to the utmost extent that it will save Disney from paying WDI to think up something fresh and new. >>>...but some of the new attractions as well as the revamped ones oculd use the same technology.<<< Let's all agree on one other thing... Disneyland in Anaheim, and more often than not, WDW as well, almost NEVER gets the same kind of cutting edge technology that the Tokyo parks get. We get little dribs and drabs here and there, such as a projector, maybe, or a special speaker. But super cutting edge ride technology? Never. >>>Besides everyone seems to apreciate the elaborate attractions that OLC funds. Anaheim would benefit from getting some of those built here.<<< We get to appreciate them from afar. And sure, Anaheim would benefit, but the same was true with Pooh, and half the crap that went into Paradise Pier that was made far far more better for TDS. So saying Anaheim would benefit, but then actually REALIZING those benefits, are two entirely different things that hardly ever coincide. >>>The big question would be WIll Anaheim also get another big indoor coaster in tomorrowland similiar to the one being discussed for tokyo?<<< The big answer would be "no". Let's face it, Anaheim just doesn't get the budgets that Tokyo does. Unless they build a miserable failure of a park for cheap, and realize what a damn fool mistake they made, and only then are they forced to spend OLC kinda dough to correct their sins. But to add something to Disneyland, which is not really hurting along the same lines that DCA is hurting? The budgets are simply not going to allow for OLC quality development based on OLC commissioned enhancements and attractions. That's why I keep saying, if they are going to do something on the cheap, I'd rather it be something completely different than what they are doing for Tokyo, which, no doubt, will be very well funded. And even if they up the budget for Disneyland, I still would prefer that it be a unique approach to the theme that can't be found in any of their other Magic Kingdom style parks. NO MORE CLONED DISCOVERYLANDS!!!!!
Originally Posted By -PLP- Hi Bean, in reference to your post #16 I have been to each of the locations that you mentioned many times over the years & I never said that it could not be accomplished, I used the word "possibly". All of those queues face into TL and I should not have even written that post. Have a Great Day!
Originally Posted By oneyepete I wouldn't mind getting something similar to what Tokyo/Paris gets as long as it is something new. I doubt that I will ever get to those parks to make any kind of comparison.
