Originally Posted By Doobie This topic is for discussion of the August 27th Book Review of <I>Married to the Mouse: Walt Disney World and Orlando</I> This review is at: <a href="News-ID503330.asp" target="_blank">http://LaughingPlace.com/News-ID503330.asp</a>.
Originally Posted By horseradish I've read the book in question and felt that Pellman's review was weak and overly apologetic on Disney's behalf. It's okay to be a fan of Disney's parks without pretending that their politics are perfect. Let's face it, corporations should not be granted human rights. They shouldn't be allowed to run governments. It's just not right and goes against everything democracy stands for. And yet - because corporations have money, which influences and corrupts even the best of politicians - companies *have* been granted rights equal to those of individuals and (in Disney's case) are even running their own governments. Pellman writes that Disney would 'understandably' want to keep guests on-property by not allowing a mag-lev stop to be built at Epcot. But any decision made on that basis (the needs of a profit-making company) is by definition at odds with the needs of a government. One way a genuine local government can express itself is through public transportation projects such as the mag-lev, something that would benefit residents and tourists. But then again, Disney is only a government when it WANTS to be a government. Should that be allowed? The most important factor discussed in the book is the way that Disney lobbied for tax breaks and other reductions or legal allowances to enable it to expand the WDW property. These are benefits which other theme parks such as Universal were not able to access (because it isn't a government), making it harder for them to compete. In some cases the financial benefits worked to the detriment of ordinary citizens, whose communities would otherwise have benefited from money that ended up going to Disney.
Originally Posted By SJHYM I also read this book after the author (I believe) posted here about his book. Despite what the reveiwer says, it is an interesting read about all the behind the scenes stuff of getting WDW built. Is it a great book? No, but it does cover in a lot of details the workings in govt and Disney to get, build and run WDW. The one thing the book does do is paint a rather unkind view of Disney as a neighbor. THere is a long section about how Disney got bond money from the govt for infrastructure. Orange and Seminole Counties were also going for the same bond money to build affordable housing. Disney got all the bond money. This led to an extended tussle between the govts and Disney in with some threats of removing Disney's govt control of the area (it was up for renewal), taxing Disney at a higher tax rate. Osceola county taxes undeveloped Disney land at the very low ranch rate, which means that their tax base is lower than Orange County from Disney while having to deal with a lot of growth because of Disney. I think the most interesting point the book raises is this: THe FL State govt granted Disney certain rights to run their property based on Walt and Roy and the Disney Company of the 1960's. They didnt plan on several things like Disney could be taken over by some other company (which almost happened), the incredible growth that Disney has had since Eisner, that Disney might not act responsably at all times when dealing with others. The book paints a picture of local govt that has been afraid to get on Disney's bad side. It talks about the perks that govt officials use to and on occasion still get. It definately makes you realise that at times the Mouse can be a rat. Read the book for yourself. Amazon sells it. I found it hard to come by here in Orlando.
Originally Posted By Phantom The state lawmakers in Florida erroneously believed that even if Walt died, his visions and way of doing business would still prevail in the company. Phantom
Originally Posted By MGuttag I've read the book as well. Although I think many of the criticisms of Disney as a "good neighbor" to Orlando are fair, there is at least one point that I strongly disagree with the authors: that Disney somehow surprised Orlando when Disney started building more hotels, beyond the Contemporary and Polynesian, inside WDW. There were plans for more hotels and even pictures of what those hotels might look like even back in the 70's. One of the reasons Disney wanted to build Disney World was so that Disney could reap more of the hotel revenue generated by its theme parks. One can argue that Disney keeping so many of its visitors in on-site hotels decreases the benefit of WDW to Orlando, but Disney was pretty up front from the beginning that it was going to try to keep lots of guests on-site. Personally, I was always surprised that Disney ever let hotels owned by other companies be built at WDW. Mark
Originally Posted By Phantom Some people complain about the traffic created by Disney, but if Disney were to build a small airport on their property, the sudden loss of business from a reduction in that traffic would prompt complaints. Phantom
Originally Posted By SJHYM Disney opened with a small airport on property but it never caught on. I agree that Disney tried to tell Orlando what to expect and there were more hotels on the boards than just the two. The question I guess is what is a good neighbor? I think the author makes some great points about Disney not doing enough to help with the problems that so many tourists brought to the area. But you can also ask the question what has Orange County done with 30 years of tax revenue to allieviate the problems too.
Originally Posted By horseradish Or you could ask... maybe Orange County and other neighbouring counties would have even more money in tax if Disney hadn't managed to establish itself as a government.
Originally Posted By SJHYM I am not sure that it matters. Disney pays county taxes to Orange and Osceola and the Reedy Creek Development did not change that. Reedy Creek is not a county. Most of the development is in Orange County. The book talks about part of the deal with Osceola for them not fighting about the Reedy Creek District was to develop the land on the other end of the property. Therefore:Celebration, AK, Wide World of Sports
Originally Posted By kpellman Just for the record, I never said that The Walt Disney Company (or any affiliated entity) has been a perfect neighbor in Florida. However, I do think Disney has been much, much more beneficial to the area than harmful. I don't think it is the responsibility of corporations (like Disney) to take care of all the needs of employees, or solve all of the problems in the community in which it is located. Corporations should only be required to pay whatever taxes they are legally bound to pay, and should only be required to take reponsibility for that they own. I don't think local governments (like Reedy Creek) should be forced to help out neighboring jurisdictions. I *am* in favor of voluntary charitable participation. Ken Pellman Kenversations@flash.net Disclaimer and stuff: <a href="http://www.flash.net/~kpellman/I.html" target="_blank">http://www.flash.net/~kpellman /I.html</a>
Originally Posted By SJHYM I just got around to reading Sunday's Orlando Sentinel and there was a rather long (for the Sentinel article out Disney as a neighbor that quotes the book we are discussing here. I would guess that it will show up in the news section this afternoon on LP. Several local officials give Disney grades as a corporate neighbor. There a couple of C's and a B but several A's. As for Disney and being a good corporate neighbor. I agree with some of what Ken is saying. Disney told local leaders to come to Anaheim and look at the growth there and get ready for it. And I also agree that Disney isnt responsible for the incredible traffic downtown. One local leader asks where is Disney's contribution to the schools here since so many Cast Members use the schools? I ask: WHere is managed growth in Central Florida? Doesnt government have responsability to manage growth wisely? If we keep allowing housing developments to be built without thought or a plan to school those childrn, whose fault is that? Where Disney has not been a good neighbor is with the Bond money issue, getting Orange County to pay for interchanges that benefit Disney off I-4, Not being more sensitive to the tourist traffic by allowing light rail or high speed rail stations on their property. Disney has been forced to be a better corporate neighbor (the book kind of says that). It would be nice for Disney to continue to find ways to help out the surrounding areas manage growth better
Originally Posted By club33az Excuse me, but no one, not even Disney, put a gun to the leaders' heads in Florida and Orlando and said "give us our own government or else." They gave Disney their own set-up because they wanted the tourist dollars. And, tourist money is a big reason Florida has no state income tax. Also, can anyone deny that Orlando is the city that Walt built?? If it wasn't for WDW, no one would even know where Orlando, FL is. What this all comes down to is the author of the book wants corporations to take care of its employees and furnish them with everything they may possibly need/want and tuck them in at night. He also wants Disney to give a "living wage" policy. Why? And how much? Who's to say how much? Why not more? Why not much more??? Why not $150,000 for every p/t and/or f/t cast member that works there? Seem rediculous? Why? It would certainly cover most (but not all) of a typical CM's needs and/or wants. Disney and WDW, and any business for that matter, only bring OPPORTUNITY to a particular area. They base there pay/salary on market forces for competing positions and move on. They are not there to hold everyone's hand and make everything better. Government is not even supposed to do that. It is up to the individual CM/employee to either take a job or not, and succeed at it or not. I've often wondered what people would do if the company in question (Disney, Microsoft, etc./any company under fire for not being a "good neighbor) would just pick up and leave. Shut down. Close up. Lay off everyone, take there ball and bat and go home. I know Disney wouldn't do that, but what if? Would they be a good neighbor then? If there was no WDW, would tourists/tourist dollars still show up?? Would Orlando still be "ORLANDO?" doubtful.
Originally Posted By SJHYM Thats true, but again the Fl legislature made that agreement almost 40 years ago. In some ways they were foolish not be forward looking. Did they expect that Disney might be taken over by another company that may not have the same values as Disney does? Also Microsoft has not had the impact as Disney has had in both Anaheim and Central Florida. I for one do not expect Disney to pay for our schools, roads and services here but I also dont expect Disney to use Govt Bond Money to build infrastructure or use road money from Orange County for and I-4 interchange. I think Disney should pay for for its own infrastructure and exits when they expand. I dont think either side is guiltless. Central Florida govts have done a poor job in planning for the growth that has come here but Disney hasnt always been the best of neighbors either.
Originally Posted By SJHYM One more point. THe authors point about salaries is not that Disney should pay more. What he says is that at 55,000 employees, most of them in lower wage jobs (a full time CM in opertations starts at around $6.40 or $256.00 before taxes a week) isnt making enough money to impact the tax base. This means less tax money for essential services. He also points out it is not just Disney but the entire Orlando area that suffers because of the tax base. He also concedes that Orlando is better off because of Disney.
Originally Posted By SJHYM Ugh. Reread my last post. What I was trying to say is that Disney is not the only service industry company, just the biggest. The tax base is hurt because it takes a lot of people to run hotels, theme parks and resturants but their salaries are too low to impact the amount of taxes needed to supply schools, roads, emergency services
Originally Posted By club33az If we're just talking taxes here, the tax base is made up big time just on sales tax alone, I would think.
Originally Posted By SJHYM really? then why are our kids in classes of 36 students? Why couldnt Orange County not hire fireman last year? Why dont we have decent roads to handle the traffic? I will be darned if I know where all that tax money is going. Oh, we do have one of the biggest Sheriffs depts that makes more arrests per percential of people than 95% of the country
Originally Posted By MGuttag <<The tax base is hurt because it takes a lot of people to run hotels, theme parks and resturants but their salaries are too low to impact the amount of taxes needed to supply schools, roads, emergency services.>> SJHYM, Your point is one of the criticisms of Disney in Married to the Mouse that I did find persuasive. If most of the "job growth" from having Disney in the Orlando/Osceola is low wage jobs that do not allow workers to afford shelter, food, or schools for their children without government subsidy, does such job growth really benefit Orlando and Osceola? How many communities are out there trying to attract more low wage jobs and have to pay more taxes to support government subsidies for shelter, food and schools,? It seems to me that most communities want more high wage jobs in their communities? That's the difference of having a company like Microsoft as opposed to Disney in a community. As a software company, many of the Microsoft workers are high wage workers, whereas at WDW, like most resorts in the tourist industry, most of the workers are low wage workers. Mark
Originally Posted By Kevin Regarding the I-4 interchanges and who should pay for them, I assume Disney was forced to donate the land free of charge (under imminent domain)? If so, then the cost of actually building the federal road should not be financed by the company.
Originally Posted By SJHYM I believe the interchanges were put in at Disney's request to feed into the Sports Complex and AK areas. And after Orange County paid for them they realised that the interchanges were actually in Osceola County. The book goes into the dealings in detail about the interchanges. Disney did a fairly strong sell to the county.
