Originally Posted By Doobie This topic is for discussion of the November 19th Greg Maletic Column at <a href="News-ID160050.asp" target="_blank">http://LaughingPlace.com/News-ID160050.asp</a>.
Originally Posted By MouseBear Salutations Greg, I'm glad you liked the Haunted Mansion Holiday, it is a great re-do of the ride. I also happen to like the Holiday version better than the regular Haunted Mansion. However, I have to disagree with you about the silly aspects of POC and the Haunted Mansion. I think the tongue in cheek elements of these attractions are fun and make the attractions more accessible to families. If Pirates had gone for straight realism the attraction would probably overwhelm kids under seven or eight. However, if the designers of the attraction had gone for straight camp I think the attraction would have become dated very quickly and would only appeal to children. So I guess I'm saying I like the balance the attraction presently has. I do, however, understand your point of view. I'll be interested to see if the direction you suggest is taken when (and if) POC and HM are updated for the 50th anniversary. Thanks for writing an interesting article, MouseBear
Originally Posted By ScroogeMcDuck The guy's got a couple of good points, but I disagree on the "plywood makeover" of the HM thing... The temporary props are quite good, I think.
Originally Posted By Justice I disagree..... What Disney is doing now with shows like Indy and Twighlight Zone, are exactly what they should not be doing. They are not based on Disney properties. They are not accessible to the entire family. You also state that Indy and TOT tell a story and I'm trying to figure out what story they are attempting to tell. The only story I'm aware of in either Indy or Tower is ...You're a tourist and something goes wrong. That's a weak story that has been fed to us by Disney since the mid-1980's with shows like Star Tours. Yes, the Cue in both TOT and Indy are well done and very detailed, but Disney shows are more than a line. Humor is what makes Pirates and Haunted Mansion interesting. If you had no humor you would have boring diorama's... look at Space Ship Earth. You failed to bring up the Master Imagineer Marc Davis in your article. Walt hand picked Marc from the studio to fix Disneyland. Marc said many times that Disneyland had no humor until he worked for WED. Walt declared Marc Davis a genius for all of his designs in Pirates. If WDI were to do the Disneyland 50th layovers they should include some of the vignette’s that Marc Davis designed for Pirates that were never put in. They should make the attractions "Special Editions" that include Scene's, Character's, and Effects that were not possible to create in 1967 do to lack of funds or technology. They should not attempt to make them serious or scary it still is a Disney park. Also before they add things to the classic attractions they should bring them back to their original standards before pressing ahead and adding new things to the shows. If any of you have read my former posts you know how I feel about HMH. I think Greg was correct with his original prejudice view of the attraction. I went on HMH yet again to see if I liked it... but I still can't stand that abomination. It looks like some one vomited all over the attraction and no one cleaned it up. The Jack Skellington figure is far from well done and is definitely not better than the Graveyard Keeper. The Graveyard Keeper was well staged and you can tell exactly what he is doing, even if he is static like he is in the Gallery. Jack flails about in an un-chorographed manner, he is poorly staged and his pose it unidentifiable (I think he has a Sack over his shoulder but since it wasn't very clear I'm not sure) Jack is good for Chuck E' Cheese but he doesn't stand up to quality Disney figures like Hopper or the new Sinbad figures in Tokyo. As for Disneyland's 50th, I hope you like Paint.
Originally Posted By ben-gunn Ah, there goes Justice, our little "drama student". While you've made your displeasure (actually all out hatred)of HMH known in previous posts on LP, I was surprised, this post made some very good observations concerning storyline, humor and Marc Davis. Then we get to the last two paragraphs and we have the usual HMH bashing session. Can't you make criticisms without the cheap shots(i.e. "looks like someone vomited all over the attraction...")? HMH is NOT the scourge you make it out to be and those who love or simply enjoy it aren't the idiots you make them out to be. If it's not your cup of tea, don't drink it.
Originally Posted By ben-gunn Ah, there goes Justice, our little "drama student". While you've made your displeasure (actually all out hatred)of HMH known in previous posts on LP, I was surprised, this post made some very good observations concerning storyline, humor and Marc Davis. Then we get to the last two paragraphs and we have the usual HMH bashing session. Can't you make criticisms without the cheap shots(i.e. "looks like someone vomited all over the attraction...")? HMH is NOT the scourge you make it out to be and those who love or simply enjoy it aren't the idiots you make them out to be. If it's not your cup of tea, don't drink it.
Originally Posted By DENNIS22 What everyone seems to be missing is that if Disney did such a fine job with the Mansion makeover why not just make a new atraction elseware in the park, you may be board with the old attractions but their are still people who have not seen thease timeless rides. If they change everything on the rides in years to come people like you will be saying remember the original? they should bring it back! leave well enough alone
Originally Posted By funnymanjake "You also state that Indy and TOT tell a story and I'm trying to figure out what story they are attempting to tell. The only story I'm aware of in either Indy or Tower is ...You're a tourist and something goes wrong. That's a weak story that has been fed to us by Disney since the mid-1980's with shows like Star Tours." It's called "conflict," Justice, in case you haven't heard that term. It is the essence of what makes a story a story, and without it, you have plotless meandering. In almost every Disney attraction, you can find a "something goes wrong" turn of events, and it all adds up to conflict which furthers the story. The rides that lack this conflict (Dumbo, Casey Jr., Astro Orbiter, Storybook Land Canal Boats) are merely showcases, an "enjoy the scenery" type ride, and for my money, are quite boring. I I would encourage WDI to continue with it's "something goes wrong" plot twists, and keep our upcoming rides exciting and thrilling, rather than dull, and based almost solely on observation.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer I don't know - I rode the Storybook Land Canal Boats and something goes horribly wrong every time I go. One time another guest's flash cannon on their camera blinded me when they were taking a flash picture of my face. Another time I had this REALLY annoying CM on the ride who had a whiny voice and about as much personality as Al Gore on vicodin.
Originally Posted By Justice ben-gunn, I don't think fans of HMH are idiots, I just have a different opinion than those of you who can't get enough of it. To me the combination of colors in most of the scenes remind me of vomit. Vomit is not a pleasant thing to talk about; I apologize if I made you ill. Perhaps a better analogy could have been...It looked like my 2 year old nephew got a box of crayons and scribbled on every page of my Michelangelo coffee table book. I do not think that my critique of the Jack figure is unfair, and I’m surprised that Greg deemed Jack better than the Graveyard Keeper. The Graveyard Keeper was designed and staged by Marc Davis...how can you argue with that. I really do like the new Gallery exhibit. All the Haunted Mansion Drawings and Models are wonderful to see up close. The NBC exhibit is wonderful as well, I do wish that they had some of the Puppets from the film on display. It’s also nice that the HM and NBC artwork is separated; to bad they couldn’t have done that with HMH...you know keep them separate. I don't drink Coffee but I do enjoy a good Corned Beef or Pastrami Sandwich once in a while. To me the Haunted Mansion is like a big old Pastrami sandwich on real Rye Bread with some good Deli Mustard. You go on the real Haunted Mansion and it's just right, just like that delicious Pastrami Sandwich mentioned above. In my mind HMH is my good old Pastrami on soggy Wonder bread with lettuce, tomato, and mayonnaise. Anyone who's been to a real New York Deli would understand Justice
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Maybe you are still expecting the Pastrami but you are being served Corned Beef instead. It's still good, but since your taste buds are dead set on Pastrami you can't enjoy the good sandwich you've actually been served. I'm a bit worried about HMH when I see it for the first time in 22 days. I love the HM and I'm not a huge fan of NBC or Tim Burton. Who knows, I may be here in a month agreeing with you.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Just have a sandwich first, then you'll enjoy the ride and not be thinking of a delicatessen.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer So are they serving sandwiches at the HM now? I always wanted to eat at the table in the ballroom.
Originally Posted By Justice funnymanjake, You are correct; there is conflict in every good story. Does the guest always need to be a tourist? NO!!! Can the guests be something besides tourists? Yes!!! WDI just needs some fresh blood coming up with attractions. Dumbo and Storybook Land are some of the best shows in the park. They are a simple fun, family oriented attraction which is what Disneyland is all about. You probably find a Bug's Land boring. I wish Disney would do more things like a Bug's Land and less "no show roller coaster garbage". If you want Mega Thrills go to Six Flags and don't bother going to Walt's (Family) Park Justice
Originally Posted By TomSawyer So we've got a pastrami on rye with deli mustard, a corned beef on rye with mustard and just a little kraut but not too much, and something on wheat - did you just want the wheat bread or did you want a sandwich. Do you all want chips? They don't cost any extra. And help yourselves to one of those pickles in that jar over there.
Originally Posted By gmaletic Thanks for everybody's comments. Here's a couple of responses to the various posts: - I'm not saying get rid of the humor in these attractions entirely. A good example of humor I think is fine in Pirates is the dog holding the prison cell key while the cell's inhabitants try to coax it from him. I'm okay with this: this is funny, but it isn't a "gag." Same for the duelists in the Haunted Mansion's ballroom scene...they're a little funny, but not disruptive to the mood of the attraction. I think you could lose some of the cornier stuff in these attractions without damaging the experience in any way, and still have an attraction that appeals to everyone. There is precedent for this: the "Pirates" rides in the three other Magic Kingdom parks avoid most of the pitfalls that I pointed out in Disneyland's, and are just as loved by their audiences as the original is by its followers. - I figured somebody would bring up the fact that I didn't mention Marc Davis in the article. That was intentional: I didn't want to say "I don't like what Marc Davis did here," because 1) I'm not exactly sure of what Marc Davis did and did not contribute to the attraction, 2) it doesn't really matter who did what--I'm assessing the attraction as a whole, not critiquing the individual performance of those who built it, and 3) it's an absolute certainty that a comment like that would invite scorn from nearly everyone and get the whole discussion off-track. Based on what I know about Marc Davis, I think he did a lot of great things for the Disney parks. I don't, however, think something is good simply because he did it.
Originally Posted By Jim in Pasadena CA I would agree with some of Justice's sentiments, in that, recent attractions like 'Star Tours' 'Indiana Jones' and even 'Universe of Energy with Ellen' and 'Test Track' have a very 'wink-wink-nudge-nudge' awareness to them. A sense of the Imagineers saying 'We know you're tourists, and we're going to make references to that.' It's perhaps cute, and makes you chuckle, in the way that modern-day references are made in 'Shrek' or 'The Grinch', but it's not terribly clever. My feeling is when a designer makes the conscious decision to be clever, or glip, or cute -- he's alreay sunk. 'Haunted Mansion' and 'Pirates of the Caribbean' have none of that sentiment, which is partially why they've lasted so long. There's a timelessness about them -- althought there's humor injected in some of the scenes, they play it 'straight' -- and the humor does not become stale or old.
Originally Posted By luvdamaagic I guess I may be in the huge minority that didn't get into the HMH makeover stuff. I am not into Jack Skelington and his figure looks more like a simplistic stick figure that simplifies the stop action animation that he was made for. To me there seems to be a very narrow appeal with this version of the Hauted Mansion - limited to those that may be familiar with or enjoy nightmare before Christmas. More peoaple can relate to the storyline of visiting a haunted mansion than the nightmare before Christmas. I would much rather see the orignal Haunted mansion (that I remember)with details such as lightning changing the paintings hanging on the wall and the more "scary" feel (louder shrieks, lurking ghost surprises)in general. It has become toned down a bit too much over the years I think. Just my ipinion.
