Originally Posted By AutoPost This topic is for Discussion of <a href="http://www.LaughingPlace.com/Latest.asp?I1=ID&I2=75815" target="_blank"><b>Latest: CartoonBrew's Jerry Beck Offers Mixed Review of Disney Tangled</b></a> <p>As Jeff Kurtti's "<a target="_blank" href="http://www.amazon.com/Art-Tangled-Jeff-Kurtti/dp/0811875555/laughingplacecom">The Art of Disney Tangled</a>" hits shelves <em>Cartoon Brew'</em>s Jerry Beck offers his thoughts on the upcoming animated feature, from its first rate art, animations, visuals to the film's unmemorable songs and cliche story.</p>
Originally Posted By leemac Paging skinnerbox, paging skinnerbox - our hero is posting dynamite on the Tangled review thread: John Sanford says: 11/13/10 5:01pm (Face slap) For crying out loud. The Pixar Braintrust RUNS this place. It’s THEIR fault!!! The direction that DIsney Feature SHOULD go is where we STARTED to go in the early 00s with Lilo and Stitch. Innovative unique stories with a personal point of view. We started that direction, and then we were stopped in our tracks,…but David Stainton and his ilk. At that point, I left the studio. Part of the problem is that massive legacy, the other part is that they STILL seem to be trying to make movies for their “Core Audience”. That was a popular buzzword back when I was there. “We can’t alienate our CORE AUDIENCE”. I finally said at some meeting or retreat with a bunch of bigwigs “If you keep trying to figure out what that mythical CORE AUDIENCE wants, then you are going to be playing to a rapidly shrinking room”. Anyone left in that room? Anyone? ECHO!!! The fix is simple, Disney: take a chance, make some simple, compelling, unique family movies. Forget the f**king fairy tales, forget the f**king princess bullshit and for F**K’S SAKE STOP MAKING MUSICALS!!! Look for the next Lilo and Stitch. Yes, you managed to alienate the guy who created THAT franchise, so turn to the people you have left. I’m sure ONE of them is nurturing a little gem of a story that would make a GREAT movie. Go ask ‘em. Better hurry, before you bankrupt the company. I'm soooooo in love. ))
Originally Posted By leemac Nuts - I missed one expletive - sorry ADMIN! Paging skinnerbox, paging skinnerbox - our hero is posting dynamite on the Tangled review thread: John Sanford says: 11/13/10 5:01pm (Face slap) For crying out loud. The Pixar Braintrust RUNS this place. It’s THEIR fault!!! The direction that DIsney Feature SHOULD go is where we STARTED to go in the early 00s with Lilo and Stitch. Innovative unique stories with a personal point of view. We started that direction, and then we were stopped in our tracks,…but David Stainton and his ilk. At that point, I left the studio. Part of the problem is that massive legacy, the other part is that they STILL seem to be trying to make movies for their “Core Audience”. That was a popular buzzword back when I was there. “We can’t alienate our CORE AUDIENCE”. I finally said at some meeting or retreat with a bunch of bigwigs “If you keep trying to figure out what that mythical CORE AUDIENCE wants, then you are going to be playing to a rapidly shrinking room”. Anyone left in that room? Anyone? ECHO!!! The fix is simple, Disney: take a chance, make some simple, compelling, unique family movies. Forget the f**king fairy tales, forget the f**king princess b*lls**t and for F**K’S SAKE STOP MAKING MUSICALS!!! Look for the next Lilo and Stitch. Yes, you managed to alienate the guy who created THAT franchise, so turn to the people you have left. I’m sure ONE of them is nurturing a little gem of a story that would make a GREAT movie. Go ask ‘em. Better hurry, before you bankrupt the company. I'm soooooo in love. ))
Originally Posted By leemac I'm glad that my opinion on the movie seems to be aligning with most reviewers - I was beginning to think I was in a minority. It is a movie made by committee that is entirely safe. I really recommend folks go out there and get Jeff's book (The Art of Tangled) - it has some gorgeous art that shows the direction that the movie was heading in before a certain chief creative officer got his dirty paws on it......
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: I wouldn't agree that Disney should stop making movies out of Fairy Tales but I DO think the people currently in charge of anaimation have lost their way when it comes to relating to them.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA On the same site, here's a guy who's recreating the opening credits of the old "Jonny Quest' animated series -- using stop motion animation. Very interesting... <a href="http://www.rogerevans.tv/jq_page2.html" target="_blank">http://www.rogerevans.tv/jq_page2.html</a>
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<and for F**K’S SAKE STOP MAKING MUSICALS!!!>> Boo!! Why all the hate against musicals??!! The only think I'm looking forward to with Tangled is that it's a musical - otherwise it just looks like a Dreamworks movie!! ;-) But seriously, I think I do agree with him that the studio has probably beat that horse to death - not every feature that Disney makes has to be a musical. As much as I love them, Disney needs to keep itself fresh, and they're just not doing it by constantly trying to re-make the musical success of "The Little Mermaid" and "Beauty and the Beast" over and over again. I think they should do a musical every once in a while - when the story calls out for it, but they really do need to be experimenting more with their films.
Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub The problem with former employee opinions and honesty...the current new management is never going to allow themselves to listen...you might as well be spinning in your grave like some want to believe Walt is doing. Maybe we need a new Scrooge movie with the spirit of Walt coming back to haunt everything Corporate Disney. Current management could be trapped in HM or TOT forever....
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<The songs are unmemorable. Even The Princess and the Frog had memorable, innovative song sequences. Say what you will about P&TF, I couldn’t get some of the musical numbers out of my head after seeing the film the first time.>> This part of the review I just CAN'T agree with. While I enjoyed the P&TF, I just didn't think the songs were that great, and certainly weren't very memorable. Of all the Disney soundtracks I own, that's not one that I have much desire to listen to. Maybe it's a matter of personal taste, but just from the small snippets of songs I've heard from Tangled, I can already tell I'll like the music in that film much more than P&TF.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Boo!! Why all the hate against musicals??!! >> <<But seriously, I think I do agree with him that the studio has probably beat that horse to death - not every feature that Disney makes has to be a musical.>> Exactly. It wasn't just that the studio beat the musical horse to death - it was even more specific - they beat the Menken horse to death. Whenever they wanted to make a "Broadway"-style musical they turned to him. Granted we also had two Phil Collins features as well but they weren't classic musicals. Songs should only be inserted into animated features as vehicles to propel the story along. They shouldn't be there for the sake of montages or just filler. I agree that the music in PATF was entirely unmemorable (I'd also disagree with Beck about Tangled - the music is good albeit far from Menken's best). My two year old nephew was watching Chicken Little recently - a feature I've not seen for years - and I just cringed when I heard REM's It's The End Of The World As We Know It played over the invasion. It was a clumsy and obvious choice. All too wannabe pop-culture-ish. Ultimately the Studio have dropped the ball on the marketing of Tangled. It isn't a bad movie - it is good in places - but it is formulaic - a desperate attempt to cling on to that period of The Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast. The botched scattergun approach to the trailers/featurettes won't draw in the mainstream once HP 7.1 is packing them in.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <It wasn't just that the studio beat the musical horse to death - it was even more specific - they beat the Menken horse to death. Whenever they wanted to make a "Broadway"-style musical they turned to him.> Which broadway-style animated feature scored by Menken did you think was not good?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Musicals are never popular... until they are. Tangled has not been marketed at ALL as a musical, so if it isn't a hit, you can't really pin that on it being a musical. Who would know from the trailers, even at this late date, that there's even one song in it?
Originally Posted By Manfried As much as I liked the film. His review is accurate. The story is a bit cliched and felt like something I've seen a few too many times before. Maybe they need to do a film like Dumbo again. Not boy meets girl or girl meets boy.
Originally Posted By mawnck A few observations: # of Disney animated features made while Walt was alive that weren't, at minimum, stop-the-movie-it's-time-for-a-song musicals: One. (Victory Through Air Power) # of such musicals made by Disney since 2004: One. # of negative "full" reviews of Tangled in the known universe, besides Jerry's: Zero. For extra credit, read the comments under Jerry's article, focusing on the ones by PEOPLE WHO HAVE SEEN IT. With just one exception (who claims to have fallen asleep half way through, which is mighty unlikely given that the first half is rather noisy), ALL of them disagree with Jerry and are defending Tangled. I don't get this "I wish Disney animation would go THIS direction, and Tangled didn't, therefore Tangled sucks eggs" thing. None of the other studios have to put up with that. Yeah, Tangled is a safe, marketable, retro kind of Disney movie. It also happens to be an AWFULLY good one. I have oodles of respect for Jerry Beck. Have chatted with the guy on several occasions. He knows more about animation than most of us ever will. But he stomped all over Tangled when a couple well-placed kicks would've sufficed.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<Who would know from the trailers, even at this late date, that there's even one song in it?>> It's actually pretty funny - when I tell people I want to see Tangled, they usually look at me funny. When I tell them it has songs that were written by the same guy that did Mermaid and Beauty, they suddenly show some interest. Makes you wonder how much more interest there would be if they had actually marketed this thing more like they did Mermaid and Beauty? I mean, that's obviously the success they're trying to duplicate here - might as well duplicate the marketing effort too!
Originally Posted By leemac <<# of negative "full" reviews of Tangled in the known universe, besides Jerry's: Zero.>> I didn't read the review as being entirely negative - he says what most reviewers have - that it is a safe old-fashioned Disney musical. <<I don't get this "I wish Disney animation would go THIS direction, and Tangled didn't, therefore Tangled sucks eggs" thing. >> Perhaps because Disney used to be the trailblazer in feature animation. These days it is an also-ran that can't create anything new and has to rely on old-fashioned fairytale musicals. We do hold WDAS to high standards - as we should. Sadly virtually every feature since Lilo & Stitch hasn't lived up to expectations. Tangled isn't bad - but it isn't even close to the level of storytelling that Pixar has achieved. Not by a mile.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Which broadway-style animated feature scored by Menken did you think was not good?>> They are all fine - a few are exceptional - Hunchback of Notre Dame is his finest work - but they are all just pastiches of a style. The problem is that they never turned to anyone else - it was Menken or no-one. Granted they turned to Stephen Schwartz initially for Mulan and Eisner personally removed him as he was working with DreamWorks before turning it over to Matthew Wilder who wrote some very average songs (thankfully Jerry Goldsmith's score was superb). My point is that they bludgeoned the idea of the Broadway animated musical to death - every feature had the same formula. Instead of protecting the formula by turning to other ideas (like non-musicals!) they just kept churning them out. Audiences got tired of them by Pocahontas.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Maybe they need to do a film like Dumbo again. Not boy meets girl or girl meets boy.<< I'd be all for it, but... The big problem is that every new Disney animated feature is saddled with the constant "if this one isn't a MAJOR hit, it could be the end of Disney Feature Animation!!!!" A smaller film like Dumbo, regardless of how beautifully done it might be, would be seen as a "flop" and be responsible for killing WDFA. The expectation level is impossibly high. Not every film is going to top Lion King yet that has become the standard by which all other box office receipts are measured. So as a result, it means going with the tried and true, relaying more and more on market research before the first thing is sketched, and basically analyzing the thing to death before it ever gets a chance.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<My point is that they bludgeoned the idea of the Broadway animated musical to death - every feature had the same formula.>> In their defense, they did actually try a few new things other than just Lilo and Stitch - Atlantis and Treasure Planet weren't musicals. Granted, they weren't all that great, but they did try something different. Sadly though, I think by that time, the audience was pretty much not interested. There were so many animated movies out that I think the market just got saturated - I mean, how many animated films does the average movie-goer see each year? And with the Pixar and Dreamworks CGI films becoming the "it" thing during those years, Disney's traditional films got lost in the shuffle.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 Sadly, it seems like Disney hasn't learned their lesson about releasing two many animated films to close together. I mean, do we really need both a Pixar and Disney Animation film each year? It feels like Disney of the 1990s all over again - way to much of a good thing. At some point, the audience is going to get bored and move on.
