Originally Posted By WorldDisney Okay, since the board has once again fizzled out and my review thread has said all it can, I thought of trying to think up some more topics. So, here's one . Do you think if they built DTD in HKDL, will it be sucessful? I mean a full on shopping/restaurant area like DL and maybe even WDW (although nothing THAT grand I don't think). Anyway, I ask this because the more I think about it, the less I don't think it will work. Since I been in Hong Kong the last few weeks, I noticed, OTHER than people's ho-hum reception of the park itself that one of the main complaints about HKDL is 'it's too far'. LOL, it's probably about 25 minutes away from Hong Kong island at most, but that seems to be the general view for a lot. I lived in L.A. and Tokyo and ANYTHING just 25 minutes away was considered 'close' . Now, most people in this section been here before, live here or at least know enough about the city to know how compact the place is and commute time for most who lives in the city seems to be around 15 minutes (assuming they live in the city area and not the New Territories of course). That's quite amazing for a city of 7 million. Even in San Franciso, the average commute time is 20 minutes, but that is a city of less than a million, but also compact. Also, there is shopping EVERYWHERE here!!! I been coming to Hong Kong for 7 years now and THOUGHT I seen pretty much every mall there is, but nope!! In the last 2 weeks, I walked in 3 others that I didn't even know exist lol. It's almost like discovery new planets . You can't get away from the malls and shopping here, period. Matter of fact, just to get through certain area's of the city, you have to walk THROUGH a mall to get to them. It's crazy. It's Disney ultimate dream ;D. Anyway, putting that in perspective, the amount of time it takes to get to HKDL which is 'far' by Hong Kong standards and the ridiculous amount of shopping and restaurants already, will DTD capture NON-Disney guests to see it? I think that's why DTD in Florida and Anaheim is so sucessful, because the locals hangs out of there just as much as the tourists and hotels guests. Ikspari, TDR's version, on the other hand, according to Leemac (and yes, I believe him lol) is suffering. It's been argued that the actual design is what turns people away, since its more of a mall type experience and indoors instead of a outdoor, Disney-flavor experience. I partly agree with that (but I REALLY like it actually and think its a cool place, ESPECIALLY when it rains ) and the reality is it hasn't caught on outside of the guest who are pretty much there because of the parks, but I also think it suffers the same way DTD in HKDL could suffer. One, it really IS far. Unless you are living on that side of Tokyo, it will probably take anyone else 30-60 minutes to get there. I lived completely on the other side, it use to take me 90 minutes. On top of that, like with Hong Kong, there is shopping EVERYWHERE in Tokyo and just amazing shopping districts no matter where you go with their own unique theming and all that, so why would anyone go all the way to Ikspari to go shopping and eating there when its all around them in the first place, closer.....and cheaper too . So, I think DTD would have the exact same issues as Tokyo frankly. Just too far for many and not worth so many to travel to unless you are doing the parks with so much shopping and malls less than 10 minutes away for most. Discuss.....
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: Hmmmm...a witch supposes that you would know best about all this, World Disney, duckling-- ORWEN: --especially since you've had a lot more experience with fortune cookies and chop sticks than a coven of witches so far away in a place like Morva. ORDDU: Then, again, we have to wonder if some of the same reasons you've given are the same reasons a Down Town Disney might actually become a success--such as the fact it's 25 minutes away from the rest of the shopping districts. Perhaps that would actually encourage shopping at a Down Town Disney. ORGOCH: 'Course if'n they don't go an' put in a lot more rides 'n stuff at Ping Pong Dizzyland, FIRST, it really don't matter much whether they's got Down Town Dizzy er not. Least ways that's what I gots ta throw inta the cauldron 'bout all this!
Originally Posted By Mr X First of all, in fairness, are you SURE it's ONLY 25 minutes away? I thought it was more like 45-50 minutes or so, with good connections? Having said THAT, though, I still think the location AND the time it takes to get there is AWSOME. I mean, much more than Tokyo or Anaheim, this place WHISKS you away from the city in under an hour and puts you into a magical "zone" very well (I only wish the PARK was better lol!). As for Downtown Disney...no, it won't work. I really wish they had gone that route in Tokyo though, I think it would have been awsome. But for HongKong, with the resort being as remote and out of touch as it is, which is GREAT for the park, and probably for the hotels too...though you "miss" the Hong Kong experience much more than LA or Tokyo (can't speak for Paris, never been there). I just can't imagine lots of people hangin there (I could be wrong!), seems to me that the place is more like "k, we did Disney, NOW where are we going to eat downtown?".
Originally Posted By SuperDry I think that DTD could be a good addition to HKDL. Especially if they are able to maintain the character of what's at the resort so far, it might have the feeling of being in a totally different place. That is, the current resort feels that you are anywhere BUT in Hong Kong, both to visitors and residents alike, at least according to the posts here. If there were things to do other than just the park, it might turn a visit to HKDL Resort into a full-day experience. And unlike things added inside the park, things in DTD generate their own revenue and at least in theory are self-sustaining financially. So, I don't know that DTD would ever draw a significant number of people that weren't already at the resort because of a park visit or hotel stay, but it might increase the number of people willing to visit the park which isn't a full-day experience yet (unless you go on a capacity day). It may be true that the financial realities of a DTD type of venue can't be successful without a substantial number of non-park-going visitors, and I don't know that a HKDL DTD would be able to pull enough of these people in due to its location. As WD says, it's remote by HK standards, and there are tons of retail everywhere you go in HK. But I wonder if they were able to pull off the "Toto, I don't think we're in HK anymore!" experience enough, could they pull in enough people to make a DTD successful? I don't know, but it is interesting to think about. One thing's for sure: it would improve the experience of staying on-site at least 100%. As it stands now, there is absolutely NOTHING to do outside of the park if you are staying on site. And it's not just what to do after the park closes, but what to do on your very first day in the park once you've done every last thing there is to do and re-done your favorites.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< First of all, in fairness, are you SURE it's ONLY 25 minutes away? I thought it was more like 45-50 minutes or so, with good connections? >>> It is indeed only 25 minutes away from the Tsim Sha Tsui MTR station, including transfers. I clocked it myself. Now, by the time you add getting from wherever you live to the MTR and so on, it probably is a 45-minute trek for most people each way. It would definately have to be a "destination" retail experience rather than competition for what else is on offer in HK. Another thing that occurs to me is that what's planned for Ocean Park seems that it will really give any future DTD a run for its money. At least on the concept drawings and description of the plans, the new Ocean Park complex seems like it will be quite something. If it actually gets built, and if the MTR is extended out to there as they plan, this will put a serious dent in the prospects for a successful HKDL DTD. Or so it seems to me.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<It would definately have to be a "destination" retail experience rather than competition for what else is on offer in HK.>> My take is that if a DtD was built, it would need to focus more on unique restaurants and entertainment than retail shops to have a fighting chance at luring people. A Rainforest Cafe, an Adventurer's Club, and a Cirque are things that can't be found in Hong Kong (or am I wrong?)
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>It is indeed only 25 minutes away from the Tsim Sha Tsui MTR station, including transfers. I clocked it myself.<<< Wow. I really thought it was further. I don't know why (I suppose being a Tokyo guy, I "assume" that all the trips take a long time!). In fact, sitting on the train with WD, I think I remarked something to him about this trip taking quite a long time. Tsim Sha Tsui...what a GREAT name! I will NEVER forget that as long as I live...the greatest way to speak "fake Chinese" that I know of lol.
Originally Posted By HongKongDisneyLand Rainforest cafe was not successful in HK. They closed down several years ago.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<Rainforest cafe was not successful in HK. They closed down several years ago.>> Okay, I didn't know they had tried the concept there. Still, I used RC more as an example. I think a restaurant with unique theming and good food... it would have to offer food of better quality than a RC... could be successful.
Originally Posted By Mr X Which brings up the important point of WHICH retailers/restaurants really WOULD world at a DTD in Asia. As for Ikspiari in Tokyo, Rainforest and Planet Hollywood are still there, but seem to be struggling. Whereas "local" places like Monsoon Cafe (southeast asian cuisine) and Seiryumon (Chinese) are booming, with lines out the door. A smart planner of a Hong Kong DTD would HAVE to take this into account. I don't presume to know what Chinese tastes are (I hardly understand Japanese, even living here 8 years!) BUT I highly doubt it would be the same as Disney in America. Perhaps even MORESO in Hong Kong, where they already made the decision to have most of the restaurants in the park serve Chinese food.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<they already made the decision to have most of the restaurants in the park serve Chinese food.>> I am under the impression that Chinese people don't have particularly adventurous palates, at least with regards to foreign cuisine.
Originally Posted By HongKongDisneyLand Rainforest, Planet Hollywood didn't work in HK, (even in Canada, they have done very poorly. i Guess most of them closed down for business)
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< My take is that if a DtD was built, it would need to focus more on unique restaurants and entertainment than retail shops to have a fighting chance at luring people. >>> It's funny you should mention this, as I wondered at the time if "retail" was the right word to use. I definately meant it in a broad sense, to include not only shopping, but also dining and entertainment venues including cinema and live performance. I can't seem to think of a single word that encompasses all of this better than "retail," although sometimes this seems to mean just shopping.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj I'm not sure DTD "works" unless there is a compelling reason for guests to stay overnight in resort hotels. I don't see the captive audience in HKDL being sufficient to support a DTD. In Orlando, you have a massive sprawl of on and off property hotels to draw visitors from. In Anaheim, the same sort of environment. Even so, I think the Orlando version of DTD has struggled in areas to maintain some of its retail and restaurant areas. There have certainly been peaks and valleys in the success curve there. Anaheim's version has also seen a revolving door of tenants in some of its shops and restaurants. I honestly doubt that aside from the high visibility of these locations, that any of these retail ventures does all that well in these sort of developments. I definitely think it would have to be anchored by an entertainment venue -- Cirque du Soleil or a theater venue for Disney broadway musicals.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I'm not sure DTD "works" unless there is a compelling reason for guests to stay overnight in resort hotels. I don't see the captive audience in HKDL being sufficient to support a DTD. >>> I had wondered about this myself. Building a DTD at HKDL in order to encourage more people to stay on site would make sense only if by doing so they could increase occupancy (or the average room price). I have no idea if they're filling up the rooms or not as it stands. Also, the nature of visitors to HK is very different than that of any other Disney resort. It seems unlikely that they'd ever have a substantial percentage of locals staying on-site, what with practically everyone in Hong Kong being within an hour or so of the park. And with everyone else having to visit Hong Kong as a foreign country (even so in practical terms for mainland Chinese), it's likely that very few visitors will have made the trek to Hong Kong just to visit DL, what with all the other stuff there is to see. Compare this to any of the other Disney resorts. The US resorts almost certainly have a majority of people staying in the hotels that are from the US. WDW in particular is prone to having people that are staying at the resort as their sole destination for their trip. The guests at the TDR hotels are probably at least 99% from Japan. HKDL is different in that virtually all of the on-site guests are going to be from outside of the "country" and have HKDL as only a small part of their visit, and that virtually all of the "in country" visitors will just make it a day trip from home.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Ikspari, TDR's version, on the other hand, according to Leemac (and yes, I believe him lol) is suffering. It's been argued that the actual design is what turns people away, since its more of a mall type experience and indoors instead of a outdoor, Disney-flavor experience. >>> I don't have access to the financials for Ikspiari, nor do I really have an opinion on the design, other than to say that in order to fit what they did in the amount of space available more or less dictates a multi-storey design (a big departure from the various DTDs (or "Village" as is the case in France)), and this leans heavily toward an inside design. Now, whether the layout, theming, tenant selection, and promotion are up to par, that's another matter. I did want to say something about the reported issues of Ikspiari underperforming that you refer to. My understanding is that there are certain factions within WDC that are not happy with Ikspiari if for no other reason in that they were not involved. Unlike the TDR parks, WDC had no involvement in Ikspiari. From what I understand, OLC planned it without even getting into preliminary talks with WDC about being involved and having it being an actual DTD (I could be wrong on this point). In any event, since WDC was not involved, they didn't get to collect their fees for WDI design work, management consulting fees, or the ever-present royalty off the top. For reference, WDC collects a royalty off the top for all gate revenue, food/beverage revenue, and merchandise revenue in the parks at TDR for the right to use the various Disney properties (characters, movies, names, etc). For example, they get 10% right off the top on all park ticket sales, regardless of how much OLC makes or even if they make nothing at all or actually lose money. This is in addition to the management consulting fees and WDI design fees that they collect for services provided. Compare this to what WDC gets from Ikspiari: nada. No design fees, no management consulting fees, and no royalty from gross receipts. This is why there's no mention whatever of the Disney name or characters at Ikspiari (other than at the Disney Store, which is operated under the master agreement that governs all Disney Stores in Japan). This is most visible at Camp Nepos (see <a href="http://www.ikspiari.com/en/nepos/" target="_blank">http://www.ikspiari.com/en/nep os/</a> ) which just screams as wanting to be an immersive Disney character experience for children, but where there's nary a famous mouse to be found. The same lack of anything Disney is obvious in the rest of Ikspiari (again, except for the Disney Store) once you realize it. Since whatever business Ikspiari does generate is obviously mostly related to the fact that it's on-site at TDR and probably has little to do with mall design/management genious within OLC, it's not surprising that at least some people within WDC might be bitter that they get absolutely nothing out of it. So, when you read reports about Ikspiari's troubles (and I have no reason to believe that they don't actually exist), you have to take them in the context of the point of view of the person doing the reporting, and how that might relate to the internal mindset within WDC. There are any number of ways to select a single "deep" number from a large pool of numbers that are only publicly reported in the aggregate in order to support a particular skewed point of view, whether it's done on purpose or inadvertantly.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>There are any number of ways to select a single "deep" number from a large pool of numbers that are only publicly reported in the aggregate<<< Could you put this in "for dummies" terms please? In particular, I don't understand "in the aggregate".
Originally Posted By leemac SuperDry you are right except for the fact that WDP&R did pitch a DtD concept to OLC who rejected it out-of-hand to build their version Ikspiari. However Disney had no imput whatsoever into the project. This is one of the interesting thing about Cirque now as WDP&R/WDI are now having to work hard to get the theater to "fit" into space that they didn't originally conceive.
