Originally Posted By Darkbeer <a href="http://micechat.com/forums/disneyland-resort/116441-part-lilly-belle-destroyed-ada-compliance.html#post1055336909" target="_blank">http://micechat.com/forums/dis...55336909</a> >>I'm receiving word that the beautiful brass and wrought iron platform railing, as well as the train sign (or "drumhead") have been removed and destroyed in order to make the Lilly Belle ADA compliant. The railing has been cut and replaced by a chain to allow a ramp to be affixed. <, The report by Steve DeGaetano says that it is "Adventures by Disney" and their special Back Stage Tours that forced the changes made to the historical caboose. I am not happy with the decision.... The Lilly Belle is a historcial vehicle, and should be forced to lose its original look. There are PLENTY of other trains that disney runs on its railroad tracks that could accomidate a wheelchir, if the group needed it.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt I guess if you are wheelchair bound and love Disney this is good news. I'm going to trust that the modifications will done with care and the finished product will look just fine.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros Oh, it's about the train. I was really upset when I first read the headline, since I thought it was about the LPer named Lilly Belle who I haven't seen posting in a while. That's a shame that they're raking out the railing of the caboose, but I'm sure it will make a return eventually. I don't know what the exact logic is behind the change, since it doesn't sound like they are adding any additional width to the platform on the back. If they are removing part of the railing, I would expect that it's the bit that runs along the sides of the car, but leaving the majority of the back part in place. I can't see how taking out the railing and replacing it with a chain would help put enough space on the back to fit a wheelchair. I've done a little bit of work trying to make things ADA compliant, and it's tough to do, even on new structures. It's nice that they are hacing this as an option, especially since I can't think of any other way that people in a wheelchair could even board the DLRR. I heard a few years ago that they were trying to get Main Street Station on the national list of historic buildings so that they wouldn't have to put in an elevator. Any word on whether that happened, or if it was even true? Guests in wheelchairs can board at Toontown and Tomorrowland and exit at Main Street if they wanted to, so I'm not sure if that counts as being accessable or not. As for them destroying the railing and sign on the back in the process of the removal, I would be absolutely shocked if this were true. Disney saves everything they ever do, and I would expect this to be the case here as well. If nothing else, I'm sure they realize that they could make a very nice chunk of money selling the railing and sign from Mrs Disney's personal car to fans. "Destroying" it just doesn't seem like what Disney does. Even when some of the MSEP floats were "destroyed" in a fire in Paris, there was still enough left that they could rebuild them, as one of them will be in DCA this summer and the press clearly says that it's a return of an old float and not a new one. I trust the source, as he definately knows more about the DLRR than anyone I can think of, but there are definately a lot of fishy details there.
Originally Posted By smd4 Turns out only a small portion of the railing at the front of the car has been altered. We're still waiting for photos. --Steve D.
Originally Posted By DlandDug With all due respect, I feel that this initial report was a bit over the top. I, too, am unhappy to hear that this historic piece of Disneyland is being altered. But I cannot help but feel that's there is more to this than just destruction. I was especially troubled to read these concluding statements: >>These changes were demanded by the folks from "Adventures by Disney." As for me, I'm of the simple belief that if one is handicapped, one must simply recognize that one cannot do everything. I think in regards to the Lilly Belle, "modifications" to the car as made should never have occured. << I doubt that Adventures by Disney made demands. It is far more likely that their lawyers made them aware of the potential liablility of not providibg access to disabled guests. Since ABD offers this experience as part of their tour, which is purchased by the guests, it must be made available. It's as simple as that. As far as the statement, "if one is handicapped, one must simply recognize that one cannot do everything" goes, I will choose to believe that this was not intended to sound as heartless as it does.
Originally Posted By smd4 >>>As far as the statement, "if one is handicapped, one must simply recognize that one cannot do everything" goes, I will choose to believe that this was not intended to sound as heartless as it does.<<< Certainly wasn't meant to sound heartless (and I don't believe it does), but that is, in fact, what I believe. All of us, myself included, have perceived or real disadvantages that are insurmountable.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss I don't quite understand why the drumhead would need to be removed. It's on the end of the train. Are they building a lift or something? If so, wouldn't the lift be on the side of the platform and not the rear?
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I doubt that Adventures by Disney made demands. It is far more likely that their lawyers made them aware of the potential liablility of not providibg access to disabled guests. Since ABD offers this experience as part of their tour, which is purchased by the guests, it must be made available. It's as simple as that. >>> I think the issue is that at some point, the problem with ADA compliance came up as you describe. At that point, they had a choice: remove the Lilly Belle from the ABD itinerary and preserve the car as it is, or keep it and make the required ADA changes. Someone made the decision that it was more important to keep the Lilly Belle on the ABD itinerary than it was to maintain the Lilly Belle in its unaltered state.
Originally Posted By Darkbeer Why do they have to remove the Lilly Belle from the Adventures by Disney visit? Will Disney not offer Indiana Jones, Finding Nemo, the Sleeping Beauty Castle Walkthrough and other attractions that cannot accommodate wheelchairs. While Disney should try and do its best to accommodate all guests, there are times you have to say No. Such as taking a famous, Historical vehicle and modifying it. So, should Disney convert the Main Street Railroad Station from Stairs to a Ramp?
Originally Posted By smd4 trekkerus, apparently it won't be the Lilly Belle's drumhead taht wil be removed; it will be the drumhead on the second-to-last car, so that a "bridge" can then span over to the Lilly Belle.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Why do they have to remove the Lilly Belle from the Adventures by Disney visit? Will Disney not offer Indiana Jones, Finding Nemo, the Sleeping Beauty Castle Walkthrough and other attractions that cannot accommodate wheelchairs. >>> I don't know enough about the ADA to say why Disney made the decision it did. I have to assume that in their judgment, the ADA required this change, but doesn't for the other things you mention. I can think of a few ways the situations are different, but it's not really that important. I'm going to assume that they used good judgment and weren't just looking at a way to spend extra money on an unnecessary project. <<< So, should Disney convert the Main Street Railroad Station from Stairs to a Ramp? >>> They could put in an elevator for disabled guests and retain the traditional design with stairs for everyone else. This is what they did at HKDL, whose Main Street otherwise is more or less a clone of the one at DL.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<apparently it won't be the Lilly Belle's drumhead that will be removed; it will be the drumhead on the second-to-last car, so that a "bridge" can then span over to the Lilly Belle.>> If that is indeed the case, then IMO the alterations will not affect the beauty of the Lilly Belle. I am fine with the change.
Originally Posted By Schmitty Good Vibes I do a lot of ADA compliance work as well, and I've been in quite a few fights over how ridiculous it can be. All in all, I think this is a good thing. Riding another car is not the same as being in the Lilly Bell. Maybe they'll use a chain now and have something more aesthetic later. If they lengthened the right tunnel five feet (I doubt they would) they could put an elevator in the ATM/restroom area and have access to the Main Street Station.
Originally Posted By Disneydanny considering that Main St Station is not ADA compliant, how in the world do they expect someone in a wheelchair who wants to ride in it get on at Main St????
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>Will Disney not offer Indiana Jones, Finding Nemo, the Sleeping Beauty Castle Walkthrough and other attractions that cannot accommodate wheelchairs.<< Rather poor examples to cite, as each of these was, indeed, required to offer an accessible experience. Indy has the pair of elevators that allow disabled guests access to the platform, and Nemo and the Walk Through each offer rooms with specific experience for disabled guests. >>While Disney should try and do its best to accommodate all guests, there are times you have to say No. Such as taking a famous, Historical vehicle and modifying it.<< All over the country, "famous" and "historical" structures have been modified to satisfy the requirements of the ADA. In point of fact, the Lilly Belle parlor car is itself a modification of a "famous," "historical" 1955 passenger car, built under the supervision of Walt Disney himself. It was further modified in its most recent refurbishment. (Or would it be more desirable to restore it back to its famous, historical 1955 appearance?) >>So, should Disney convert the Main Street Railroad Station from Stairs to a Ramp?<< No need, as the DLRR is accessible through the New Orleans Square station. Besides, simply adding a ramp or elevator up to the station is only half the battle. There would be further need to add a platform and retractible ramp to get wheelchairs up into the rail cars. The length of the Main Street station platforms mitigates this.
Originally Posted By BellesLibrarian <<No need, as the DLRR is accessible through the New Orleans Square station. Besides, simply adding a ramp or elevator up to the station is only half the battle. There would be further need to add a platform and retractible ramp to get wheelchairs up into the rail cars. The length of the Main Street station platforms mitigates this.>> But, as I understand it, you can only access the Lilly Bell from Main Street. So to enter the Lilly Bell this way, you'd have to go 3/4 of the way around DL, exit at Main Street, enter the Lilly Bell and go 5/4 of the way around to then exit at New Orleans. That does seem a bit silly.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>But, as I understand it, you can only access the Lilly Bell from Main Street.<< At present, they choose to board the Lilly Belle on Main Street. In reality, the Lilly Belle can be boarded at any station.
Originally Posted By BellesLibrarian Thanks!^^ When I was lucky enough to ride it we were told it would be a full circle tour. I thought that was because you could only get on and off on Main Street due to the length of the cars or something.
