Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Yeah. That's a serious question. One I have been thinking about this morning as I debate my next visit, WDW and life in general. Sure, the DISNEY MAGIC is still there (thing is this never really even existed as a concept until the marketing mavens of the 1990s, MBAs and consultants decided there was a very easy way to 'milk the brand' without keeping standards up, let alone improving the product and the money would flow into Burbank. It did.) Is the real magic there? Sure. In places. Largely because it comes about through people, cast members and guests make it daily. But is it always apparent, like it once was? No. And that goes into the soul ... I've often written about the Disney Details ... and the concept of show. Those are all part of that undefinable 'it' that fans get (or did) when they are at the MK. The heart is beating strong every day through the amazing CMs who try and make magic for ever more demanding and obnoxious guests, while working for ever more demanding and obnoxious management. The soul though ... well, that's something that may well be gone forever. The soul of the MK has never been as strong as at DL. MK always was designed to be a mass-marker version (or characture as a friend's decidedly non-Disney-fan wife has said) of Walt's original. But for most of its first quarter century, the MK still had soul. You could feel it when you walked under the RR station tunnels and smelled popcorn and heard ragtime and see balloons. It felt special. Main Street wasn't an outlet mall. It had shops that (shockingly, I know) didn't sell Disney merchandise, let alone the pins, plush, pirates and princess crap that has become what WDW shopping is all about. Main Street wasn't all about rushing down it so you could get a FastPass for Space Mountain, although some always rushed to the E-Tickets. Main Street was turn of the century America. It was truly 'the gateway to the seven themed lands of the MK.' There were attractions. There was unique shopping. There were entertainers. There was music. There were turn of the century vehicles. I honestly don't recall the last time I've seen a horsedrawn streetcar at MK, let alone a Firetruck, Omnibus etc ... I guess if they run at all, they are shut down by early afternoon. Main Street feels so empty these days. When you walk into Town Square and look on both sides the first buildings you spot are now shells. The turn of the century bank is long gone and the high-end Disney collectables store that took its place has likewise been gone for years. The Walt Disney Story with its two large theaters looms to the right, but is largely an empty, misued retail location. The most action the theaters get is when management takes one over for meetings or to bring a group of perspective DVC owners in for the sales job. You don't need to rush to the Disney Story (and the previous Gulf Hospitality House) to make reservations for the great western saloon show at the Diamond Horseshoe because that's been gone for years ... replaced by ... ? Nothing really. When they get busy due to DDP they'll open it up as a food location, but the only entertainment you'll get is seeing how much Uncle Frank can down in a day! Town Square itself feels smaller. But that's because Disney decided to massacre all the mature trees on Main Street (and now other areas as well). Wishes may be a nice syrupy sweet homage to DISNEY MAGIC, but not at a cost of all those trees. Trees that provided a sense of place, of life, of growth. Now, we have strip-center seedlings that even on an unconscious level scream 'cheap' to those who never saw a green Main Street with a canopy of mature trees over the Hub Waterways and in the Hub itself ... an oasis of shade in the often brtual Central Florida sun. It's now a nicely landscaped flat area where you could fry an egg on the pavement half the year. But back to Main Street. The unique shops have left (sorry, crystal barely counts). The facades have no meaning. The Athletic Shop, a place that killed the Penny Arcade so that Disney could take advantage of its sports ties as it became a media behemoth in the 1990s, is only sports related if you workout with your tiara on (yes, I am looking at that Cubs fan in our midst!)or consider a cap to be sports apparel. Center Street was butchered because the Emporium needed to expand. Merchandise saw the sales numbers at World of Disney and they wanted their own version in every park, theming, story and sense of place be damned. So the flower market is gone, the barbershop moved ... and the opposite end of the Street dead-ends with facades around. Main Street used to be a place you wanted to spend time in. But what Spirit wants to buy a Jonas Bros CD, Tink costume (OK, sorry VBDAD!), Grumpy hoodie and 16 "LE' pins from an ornery manager wearing mall-wear (costuming is abysmal now) with a pin lanyard, company ID, Blackberry and who knows what else hanging off her? Does that feel turn of the century America to you? (no, not talking about 1999-2000 here. Besides, with all the homogenization guidebook reading disappeared when they changed to guide maps in the mid-90s (since dumbed down a few times ... to save paper, I'm sure), so why dally? Maybe get an ice cream. Prices have gone up, but they're still a good deal. So ... you get to the end of Main Street and Cindy's Castle is still there. Still as magical as any fiberglass castle in a theme park can be (well, outside of Paris, Tokyo etc). But you don't really want to stop. Many times you can't walk through it nowadays ... and when you can you'll likely be rammed into by the stroller brigade ... it may seem like 1900, but it really wasn't that long ago when strollers, ECVs, and wheelchairs didn't dominate the pavement like Hummers and SUVs on an American highway. But now, walkways are bursting even in the quieter times because children don't walk. How will they ever make their goal of 400 pounds if they aren't pushed around and coddled all day? Besides, all that loot from the WoD Main Street needs to be stored somewhere, right? The flower beds around the waterways are still beautiful, but there's not much else to look at. The seasonal Swan Boats have been gone for decades now, so the fowl is decidedly ducky in nature. With no trees in the Hub, the sense of mystery of the 'lands' is gone. You know exactly where you're going (not really for many tourists but ...) and what's there. And my doesn't that new sparkly Disney timeshare tower look great looming over T-Land. OK ... we've seen the future and it's full of timeshares that most Americans in 2009 can't afford so let's head for some Adventure instead ... the future can wait, right? More soul-searching to come ...
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Agreed Spirit. That said, with the exception of the used to be awesome Liberty Square and a big castle, the MK always seemed a pale imitation of DL for my family and me. But it was a worthy park for anyone East of the Rockies. The World itself was awesome (the hotels and lagoon, golf courses and camp grounds) and when Epcot Center opened, it was finally worth travelling from the West. But there were charming shopping and entertainment experiences that made it a worthy park. Sadly, no longer, and it is the lack of these touches, the lack of maintenance and cleanliness, the homoginized menu of burgers, hot dogs and turkey legs (god forbid the Mexican is open - only ever saw it open in the early 80's). Add in synergy and on the cheap fantasyland/toontown, it is simply a case of only going to see the Walt inspired attractions that are no longer available in Anaheim that makes it worth going. The only soul now in the Mk are indeed either the people who make it, the odd twinkle of better times gone by and a host of ignorant fans who do not know what used to be there or is still available elsewhere. sadly this is happening in all the resorts, but nowhere more than the MK (or perhaps DLP - sadly there is still more non character based entertainment in the MK than DLP).
Originally Posted By tonyanton Spirit...a wonderful post and spot on as usual. WDW and MK in particular (Epcot wasn't there for my first two childhood trips) were and still are so special to my memories growing up. Unfortunately, everything you said is true...I know generic merchandise is an issue at DL too, but their Main Street is soooo much better if only for the Cinema, Opera House, Penny Arcade (though a shop still maintains a similar feel), along with well-done landscaping and more-often running vehicles. The sad part is none of these would be too difficult to bring back to the MK. I always felt that the Emporium expansion was the cheapest way out. The MK definitely has the room on the west side to have done a Paris-style arcade which would have served the same purposes for increased merchandise selling space and sales and a second walkway (covered) in and out of the park.
Originally Posted By sjhym33 I thoroughly agree that the MK has lost its soul. I couldnt have said it better. Disney should continually set the standard but now its just any other theme park in terms of the way it is run. I knew Disney was in trouble when it hired Gap managers from off the street to run merchandise in the MK or hired MBA's to be attractions managers.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer Agreed for the most part, Spirit. MSUSA is a shell of it's former self. So is the rest of the Kingdom. The Disney Magic brand has taken over and everything wants to be the same, homogenized and uniform. It's a shame, because it used to be solely unique and the crown jewel of WDW. However, I disagree with the fact that it's less than DL. Or it used to be. I think WDW's MK is unique and has far more possibility going for it than DL does. It's bigger and just has more opportunity to be original in the sense that it's NOT Disneyland. Disneyland is forever thought of as Walt's Park and because of that (I'm sure some of the the DL Fan-base would agree) it's not allowed to have certain aspects. On the other hand, the MK might. ...Of course if TDO and WDC takes the right steps. ;-) And on another note...although I write and feel these things, the magic and originality of the MK, EPCOT, TPFKaTMGMS, and DAK will still excite me and keep me entranced (and obsessed!) Maybe it's the nostalgia, maybe it's the fact that I don't go THAT often, maybe it's the fact that I still have hope for TDO and WDC. It might be stale...but it still tastes good. At least for now. ;-)
Originally Posted By DlandDug I spent only one day in Disneyland in my childhood. Didn't get to any Florida parks until I was an adult. So my recollections are, for the most part, not based on the haze of nostalgia that are an important part of that intangible "magic." (That, of course, is the real magic, the stuff that Disney marketers have been debasing for years.) I will say that I have never felt any sense of "magic" in the Magic Kingdom. Don't get me wrong. I like it just fine. But it has always felt very generic and plastic to me. It feels like just a bigger version of something that is a little more special. Because I do not have personal memories of the parks from years ago, I have read a great deal, and been privileged to meet many people who helped create the parks. One salient fact I learned is that Walt Disney didn't have a great interest in the Magic Kingdom. In Disn eyland, he obsessed over every detail, and then spent ten years tinkering with them. Walt loved Disneyland and did all he could to make the public love it as much as he did. In Florida, Walt was also obsessed, but not with the Magic Kingdom. Those who worked on it were often frustrated, because Walt was simply consumed by his dream of an Experimental Community/City of Tomorrow. When there were questions about the MK, the usual response was to just do whatever had been done at Disneyland. Walt felt he'd done that. He was excited about the next big thing-- an actual city filled with actual people. And in a way, I feel that this attitude has been preserved at the MK. When decisions are made, it is always the easiest one, the one of expediency over creativity. And after many, many years, it has become increasingly obvious. Just my opinion, of course...
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Of course the MK is losing some of its soul. The Overtakers are using every bit of their evil power to try to turn the MK's soul to stone. But I'm not about to give up. I believe with every ounce of my being that Wayne and the Kingdom Keepers will ultimately defeat Maleficent and the Overtakers and the soul of the MK will once again reflect the soul of Walt Disney.
Originally Posted By -em sigh- couldn't have stated it better myself, and I didn't even know the park then.. but I can sure feel whats missing now
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost I suppose you all could be right, but what is missing for me is the sense of discovery. It just isn't new to me anymore. I'd like it to feel like it did when I first went but that would not be possible. I've seen it too much. It has become stale in my minds eye. I don't want to see it change but it is a very huge been there...done that experience now. It might have had as many flaws back then as it does now but I was to busy discovering to notice the flaws all I saw was the magic. Is it possible that those of us that have been many, many times are victims of our own desires to have it feel like it did then, but even if it were would it really be the same? Is it possible that since it is the CM's that create magic and not the surroundings, we are just not receptive to it like we once were. I don't know...just food for thought.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost To continue...perhaps soul comes from within us and not something that actually exists in the air that surrounds us. Could it be? I wonder!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 First, my apologies for the MANY typos in the orignal post. I puked it forth very quickly in stream of consciousness style and the result left me wondering what dear Antoinette asked about a certain Spirit way back in 1991 'Can he write?' ... now, about some of your responses ...
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Agreed Spirit. That said, with the exception of the used to be awesome Liberty Square and a big castle, the MK always seemed a pale imitation of DL for my family and me. But it was a worthy park for anyone East of the Rockies. The World itself was awesome (the hotels and lagoon, golf courses and camp grounds) and when Epcot Center opened, it was finally worth travelling from the West. But there were charming shopping and entertainment experiences that made it a worthy park. Sadly, no longer, and it is the lack of these touches, the lack of maintenance and cleanliness, the homoginized menu of burgers, hot dogs and turkey legs (god forbid the Mexican is open - only ever saw it open in the early 80's).>> I have often said that while the MK entranced me as a child, it was EPCOT Center that made me a Disney fanboi for life. I think I may have 'outgrown' my Disney habit had I not been able to watch the amazing, awe-inspiring, nothing on its scale has been done since in the USA, sprout from sawgrass, scrub and pine while I was in those formative tween years. EPCOT Center, River Country, the resorts ... the dining. All in a seemingly never-ending greenbelt ... that was the REAL Disney magic for me. I didn't get to see DL until I was in my early 20s and already geeked for life, so in many ways I didn't know what I was missing in a MK-style park. At the same time, there was so much more before (some that I've touched on, more that will follow ... of course, the same could be said of the other parks too and what is now DD and even some of the resorts). I've said before that in 1990 when I first hit DL, I was blown away. It was clearly a better individual park in many aspects than MK. But MK could still hold its own ... now, it's not even close. And they aren't trying because they don't have to.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Dare you to post this on Magic, BTW...;-)>> No thanks. I think the typical response would totally miss every point I am making and suggest that if I hate WDW so much then I should go to Universal instead. They can instead argue about the CoP moving to DCA ... or new sheriff's in town ... or wave at Space Mountain. People may agree with what I write here or disagree (or usually a bit of each) but they know how to discuss and debate. I don't want to bash another site here, especially since I still am a member there and because I have a great deal of respect for many folks there. ... But the pixie dust gets awful thick at times. Even the biggest fans here won't argue the point that Disney can and does get things wrong in Orlando, now more than ever.
Originally Posted By sjhym33 I think that Disney has forgotten that it is the sum of the parts that make the experience special. It's not that anyone was rushing to the Magic Shop to buy something but the fact that it was made the park special. You know Disney made no money on the Penny Arcade but you could really spend a penny and see a "picture" show. The Diamond Horseshoe had a low capacity and it was probably cost heavy but it was something different that you couldn't do anywhere else. It may be easier to buy lots of hamburger patties to serve throughout the park but it shows a complete lack of imagination in a place that is about imagination. Most importantly, Disney should be leading the industry in theme park entertainment. As the industry has worked hard to catch up with Disney (both Universal and SeaWorld have attractions that come close to being Disneyesque)Disney should be working harder to be special and a leader. It use to surprise me when a guest would ask which of our parks had the King Kong ride, but I realised it was because while Universal had gotten better at what they did, Disney did nothing to make itself better. I have said it before, I knew Disney was in trouble when they hired outside people to run things like the shops and restuarants and attractions and when the budget became the driving force in operating the park. You cant bring outsiders into the company in management positions, send them to a one day Traditions class and expect that they will understand what makes the Disney brand different.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I spent only one day in Disneyland in my childhood. Didn't get to any Florida parks until I was an adult. So my recollections are, for the most part, not based on the haze of nostalgia that are an important part of that intangible "magic." (That, of course, is the real magic, the stuff that Disney marketers have been debasing for years.)>> Boy, I like your way with words in this case, Dug. I never quite thought of it that way, but you nailed it. Disney's marketing weasels have in essence been debasing the REAL magic I experienced for over two decades at WDW by passing off the DISNEY MAGIC (copyright The Walt Disney Company ... all rights reserved) as the same thing or better it isn't. It's fake. It's like eating being given a Whopper and being told it's a fine filet of beef. <<I will say that I have never felt any sense of "magic" in the Magic Kingdom. Don't get me wrong. I like it just fine. But it has always felt very generic and plastic to me. It feels like just a bigger version of something that is a little more special.>> Yeah. I can get that. But it wasn't always that way. At least to me and many folks I know. But DL does feel more real, no doubt. Size plays a role, no doubt. But DLP oozes charm, magic and details and is on a much-larger scale than DL. It feels intimate, but isn't. Hell, HKDL is charming ... one of few things it absolutely isn't lacking. Since I haven't yet been to TDL, I can't comment, although I know the crowds and huge walkways there may make it feel like a much-cleaner, better-maintained MK. The MK does have a very plastic feel to me that none of the other MKs I have been to have. ... But I would say it didn't feel that way to me until sometime in the 1990s. <<Because I do not have personal memories of the parks from years ago, I have read a great deal, and been privileged to meet many people who helped create the parks. One salient fact I learned is that Walt Disney didn't have a great interest in the Magic Kingdom. In Disn eyland, he obsessed over every detail, and then spent ten years tinkering with them. Walt loved Disneyland and did all he could to make the public love it as much as he did. In Florida, Walt was also obsessed, but not with the Magic Kingdom. Those who worked on it were often frustrated, because Walt was simply consumed by his dream of an Experimental Community/City of Tomorrow. When there were questions about the MK, the usual response was to just do whatever had been done at Disneyland. Walt felt he'd done that. He was excited about the next big thing-- an actual city filled with actual people.>> I agree largely with that. Walt didn't care all that much about the MK. He saw it as a means to an end and that end was his Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow. But the folks who were at WED at the time in the 60s and 70s, they were the All-Star squad. They knew how to build a great park and they did so. <<And in a way, I feel that this attitude has been preserved at the MK. When decisions are made, it is always the easiest one, the one of expediency over creativity. And after many, many years, it has become increasingly obvious. Just my opinion, of course...>> Just my opinion, but it's a good one!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I think that Disney has forgotten that it is the sum of the parts that make the experience special. It's not that anyone was rushing to the Magic Shop to buy something but the fact that it was made the park special. You know Disney made no money on the Penny Arcade but you could really spend a penny and see a "picture" show.>> It was all part of a larger 'show' ... people have forgotten about that ... or they simply have no knowledge of it. A whole generation has been and is being conditioned to accept a much lower level of Disney quality as in fact being the Disney quality that put the company at the top of the guest satisfaction ratings. To this generation (and it isn't simply people born in the past 25 years either, it can be a couple in their 70s from Ohio who took their first trip in 1999 with the grandkids and now are DVCers and there twice a year) ... Disney's Main Street doesn't need attractions or unique shops. You can't miss what you didn't have, right? I always visited the Magic Shop on Main Street (and the other one in Fantasyland that no one seems to recall) and usually spent money there. I'd regularly stop in the Main Street Cinema, sometimes just to get out of the heat or rain. I always spent time in the Market House. I even enjoyed the smells of tobacco in that shop that the Mouse would like to pretend never existed at all (no, I never bought anything there!) <<The Diamond Horseshoe had a low capacity and it was probably cost heavy but it was something different that you couldn't do anywhere else.>> No. And this was popular right til the end. It was killed because Disney's stance was 'we don't need to pay real, unionized entertainers when we can get some 18-year-old on the CP from some university in ANytown, USA to dress as a foamhead and sign autographs' ... there's no real family entertainment at the MK anymore ... just all toons all the time. Sadly, I don't believe any of the other parks except perhaps TDL still have any saloon shows anymore. <<It may be easier to buy lots of hamburger patties to serve throughout the park but it shows a complete lack of imagination in a place that is about imagination.>> Imagination isn't taught in business schools today. (Warning political comment to follow: I find that amusing considering the economic mess we're in these days is ALL about creating 'new' fanciful ways of buying and selling debt/mortgages/derivitives/commodities ... so I guess I should say no imagination that doesn't involve things that should be illegal is taught in business schools today ... no new models etc) <<Most importantly, Disney should be leading the industry in theme park entertainment. As the industry has worked hard to catch up with Disney (both Universal and SeaWorld have attractions that come close to being Disneyesque)Disney should be working harder to be special and a leader. It use to surprise me when a guest would ask which of our parks had the King Kong ride, but I realised it was because while Universal had gotten better at what they did, Disney did nothing to make itself better. I have said it before, I knew Disney was in trouble when they hired outside people to run things like the shops and restuarants and attractions and when the budget became the driving force in operating the park. You cant bring outsiders into the company in management positions, send them to a one day Traditions class and expect that they will understand what makes the Disney brand different. >> I am not sure what's worse: the outsiders or the execs who have whored themselves and sold their souls to do things that run 100% counter to the Disney Way. Training is also a joke right down to the lowest level CMs these days ... and the whole Cross-U deal, while making sense (and dollars and cents for CMs who want to pick up extra shifts) on the face of it often leaves someone who works at say the All Stars in merchandise totally lost when they find themselves working in EPCOT.
