FP more "fair" -- Take 33 1/3 -- The final insult

Originally Posted By ssWEDguy

Good discussion. But I'm going to come back to what I think FP is all about.

I believe that it is to "Give everyone who visits a Disney park a chance to bypass at least one long line each day."

And if this is true, then we have to talk about what is "fair" when it comes to obtaining FP's on a given day.

As another poster has pointed out, FP's DO automatically lengthen Standby lines, but probably not by a lot. And the psychology of getting a line bypass outweighs the overall longer Standby matter.

The FP system works well enough. I think LEAVING IT ALONE, with existing technology in place is the best thing for all.

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However, I would STILL LIMIT the number of uses per person, per day per park to 2. Simple enough to do, with the existing machines.

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It has been suggested that most people already don't get 2 FP's per day. That most often FP's don't run out until at least mid-afternoon. And that you "just have to get their earlier to get a FP."

Maybe all this is true. But when I'm a guest in the park and in a long Standby Line I don't KNOW that "most persons don't use more than 2 FP's per day." It would help me psychologically to BE ASSURED that that was true.

Otherwise I start thinking "those kids bypassing me probably have gotten a fistful of FP's today while I stand here."

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And then we still have the start/stop/start/stop of the Standby line to deal with.

Shouldn't hurt anyone. But will benefit everyone psychologically.

So what's the harm?

 

Originally Posted By sun-n-fun

SS - In reply to # 139 in other thread. You are cracking me up. Keep up the good work!! (Thought it would be easier to find here than at #140)

 

Originally Posted By ssWEDguy

>> Thought it would be easier to find here than at #140 <<

And it was!

 

Originally Posted By vbdad55

Leaving it alone works for me -- when we get into fair and you mention one ride each --
well if I am at the park for 12 hours that day - and eating 2 meals there, and shopping etc and waiting in many many lines - I think it is 'fair' I should get to bypass more lines than someone who walks in at 2 Pm and leaves at 4.

Fairness can be sliced a whole lot of ways and I think there is nothing wrong with my example. Others will argue from a different slant - and they will bring in another variable to try and make it fair.

Mathematically you cannot argue with the fact that if I am there 12 hours and someone else 2 hours -- that 6 times the opportunity is 'fair'.
If there are no other variables it is fair....but there are tens of variables aside from hours spent in the park.

By the time you put them all together - there is no one solution that is fair.

And no - rmoving it completely is not 'fair' also - as I can argue I deserve some break for being there all day .... which was one of the concepts behind FP in the first place

This is a no win argument....

 

Originally Posted By ssWEDguy

Don't go too far from the reason I started this third thread. I'm not trying to revisit all the reasons why FP is fair, and the various definitions of fair.

I'm just wanting to know -- Why is limiting everyone to just 2 FP's a bad thing? Since I've been told that most people don't use more than 2 a day anyway?

So why not publish it, promote it, and enforce it?

This would "for free!" give people in the Standby line at least one more thing to believe -- "That at least that person passing me by now is not somehow exercising their 6th FP today while I've had access to none."

Yes I chose to come in late. Yes, the FP's were already gone. But "at least they were gone because the park is crowded today, because of my choices, and not because the person bypassing me now has had 6 FP's today."

 

Originally Posted By ssWEDguy

Before you answer, let me ask this. When you are in the park for your 12 hour visit, do you actually use more than 2 FP's a day (per park)?

If you don't, then you're arguing against a max of 2 just because you don't want a max, even though you don't typically use any more than 2.

If you DO typically use more than 2, then you're saying that the length of stay for any given person should factor into the number of FP's a person should have access to.

 

Originally Posted By vbdad55

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I gave you the reason -- explain to me how someone there 12 hours get 2 and someone there 2 hours gets 2 is 'fair'.

What makes that fair ?

one gets 1 every 6 hours and 1 gets 1 per hour.

See the argument will not hold up because the definition of 'fair' come come from many different angles.

If you worked 12 hours and got paid the same as someone who worked 2 hours - fair ?

if you worked somewhere 12 years and got the same amount of time off as some who worked there 2 years = fair ?

'fair' means different things to different people - this will never be resolved

 

Originally Posted By ssWEDguy

Maybe this thread should be asking simply --

"How many FP's do you use in a day when you visit Disney?"

and/or

"How many FP's did you NOT get when you went to get one because they were already gone?"

This would at least be feedback about actual park experience statistics, and less the much softer discussion about people's opinions about "what's fair."

 

Originally Posted By sherrytodd

I think that a handful of people can figure out a system to get multiple fastpasses, but this is a small percentage of the visitors in the park per day. The more crowded the park becomes, the less fastpasses that FP system-cracker can get, because the early morning return times on the fastpasses go up quickly to the point where even someone who knows the system will be hitting the two hour wait between fastpasses and won't be able to accumulate them. Just because you've figured out the system, doesn't mean that the rules no longer apply to these people. They are still limited by the same rules as everyone else. On busy days, the fastpasses due not run out due to people abusing the system, they simply run out because there are a large number of people in the park. On slow days, it is easy to abuse the system and accumulate a handful of fastpasses, but really has little reward as the standby lines are at a manageable level. As stated above, I don't believe in limiting people to two fastpasses a day as I believe that there is a difference between someone who shows up for two hours vs. the person who is there from open to close. The current system rewards people who spend more time in the park. I don't see a problem with that. The more you invest in your day at Disneyland, the more I believe you should get out of it.

 

Originally Posted By ssWEDguy

>> The current system rewards people who spend more time in the park <<

Yes, it does.

But looking at it from Disney's perspective, wouldn't it be in the company's interest if they could reward MORE people to come to the park, than to just reward the ones that are already there?

And to turn the 12-hour argument around a little --

A 7-day pass nets out to about $30 a day for a person to visit the park, right?

If I consume one of those day passes by coming in late, and I'm only in the park for 3 hours instead of your 12, aren't my 3 hours "more expensive" to me than your same cost of entry spread out over 12?

I'm spending $30 for 3hrs = $10 per hour to visit. You're spending the same $30 over 12hrs = $2.50 per hour to visit.

So why am I rewarding the 12 hour visitor more?

 

Originally Posted By ssWEDguy

>> The more you invest in your day at Disneyland, the more I believe you should get out of it. <<

And I agree with this.

I just stop short of including "at the complete forebearance of FP's for people who choose to come in to the park later in the day."

One reason some people come to the park later is PRECISELY to avoid the rush associated with rope drop. (Whereas the rush of rope drop is PRECISELY what I and others live for!) They're on vacation. Some people actually just want to enjoy it, and leave the rush behind.

 

Originally Posted By sherrytodd

Because the 12 hours visitor is ultimately speanding more money in the park on food and most likely souvineers then the pop in and out 2 hour visitor. Plus, who is more likely to feel the affects and frusterations of the long lines, the 12 hour visitor who has spent the entire day in them or the 2 hour visitor who will wait in one or two. If you're popping into the park for just two hours, how much do you really expect to get out of it? Most people who are doing this, most likely are not paying the full days fair, but are problaly APers or using bonus day tickets. Otherwise it is just not financially sound to most visitors and would represent too small a percentage of visitors to Disneyland for Disney management to change their entire fastpass system for.

 

Originally Posted By trekkeruss

<<And to turn the 12-hour argument around a little -->>

Numbers can be spun around any which way, in order to achieve the results you require. It's no different than when Disney is accused of conducting surveys, not with the intent of actually trying to find out what guests want, but to support an agenda being pushed by management.

 

Originally Posted By Black Pearl

[[Mathematically you cannot argue with the fact that if I am there 12 hours and someone else 2 hours -- that 6 times the opportunity is 'fair'. ]]

This my friends is logic on the scale of Newton. Well done vbdad55. In my opinion, the Fastpass debate is OVER.



Some of you may be interested in this. It tells you which famous mathmetician you are most like.

<a href="http://www.nces.ed.gov/nceskids/MathQuiz/" target="_blank">http://www.nces.ed.gov/nceskid
s/MathQuiz/</a>

 

Originally Posted By Black Pearl

[[Numbers can be spun around any which way, in order to achieve the results you require.]]

This is true but only to a degree before the inevitable point comes whereby your theory or model breaks down. This would absolutely occur 100% of the time, because you used your ends to justify your means. In other words, if you manipulate your data to "fit" a predetermined result, then you are not going to "fool" science for long. vbdad55's argument is inscrutable mathematically speaking. One could argue that Person A, paid the same amount of money to get entrance as did Person B, and therefore is entitled to the same number of FP's. However, the original argument (2 passes for a given period of time, in this case, one day) was based on time, not admission paid. So, take an E for effort but his model stands.

 

Originally Posted By trekkeruss

Except we aren't talking about mathematics, we are talking about forming and basing opinions based on numbers. I am willing to bet that even if it was shown that standby times are not statistically longer with FP, that some would argue the point anyway.

 

Originally Posted By t1lersm0m

I don't understand why people who stand in a "stand-by" line would get upset with people in the "Fast Pass" line when everyone has the same access to Fast Pass. I personally don't think it's fair to expect to show up at a park at 4 PM, and be able to get on an E ticket ride in a short amount of time.

My family only makes it down once every few years. Since Tyler was born, we were there in 2001, 2003 and twice in 2004. So as someone who doesn't get to go to the park all of the time, we make it a point to get to the parks early and spend a big bulk of our day in the parks.

I also contend that if you are in a park the last few hours of it being open, the lines will be smaller then they will at say 4 PM.

That was one of the biggest complaints of people on LP with summer hours. The MK had early closings, and people wanted the hours to be open later (which I totally agree with) so that you could enjoy the park when the temperature is more bearable, and most people have left the park.

So, I don't think you have to storm the park early to take advantage of small lines. I think (and this is not based on any mathematical data, just my observance) that the first few hours after opening, and the few hours before closing probably have the shortest waits of the day.

 

Originally Posted By vbdad55

<If I consume one of those day passes by coming in late, and I'm only in the park for 3 hours instead of your 12, aren't my 3 hours "more expensive" to me than your same cost of entry spread out over 12?

I'm spending $30 for 3hrs = $10 per hour to visit. You're spending the same $30 over 12hrs = $2.50 per hour to visit.

So why am I rewarding the 12 hour visitor more?
<

turning it around would be like saying a crappy golfer gets more shots per round so let's only reward the good golfers as they take less shots per round on our course.

Teh reason turning it around doesn't work is that the person who is there 12 hours vs. 2 -- also spends money eating and drinking ( unless they are a camel) - and presumably shopping as well - so you have to figure that revenue and profit into the equation

 

Originally Posted By vbdad55

<Except we aren't talking about mathematics, we are talking about forming and basing opinions based on numbers<

'opinions' or perception is the wild card -- the math model still works regardless but if someone doesn't like the answer they could still be upset - that was my point.

From a stats standpoint we can make the numbers prove almost any point- but if the perception is "I'm getting screwed" then it really doesn't matter.

there is no one model that all people are going to perceive as fair

 

Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan

<--- lights corncob pipe...

Back in my day, they had what were called 'ticket books.' The various rides were assigned a kind of 'value' and you had A tickets, B tickets, all the way on up to E tickets. And if you wanted to ride one of those rides twice, you marched on up to the ticket booth and you bought yourself another ticket.

<--- rocks slowly on porch swing

It was a pretty good system, and folks had to be a little choosey in what they used them tickets for. There wasn't a way to beat the system, see, everyone got in line and handed over their ticket, and that was that.

<-- sips mint julep

Now, mind you, I've always thought Fast Pass was a pretty good idea. Nic to give folks a break. Unfortunately, it seems that there are ways to beat the system, perfectly legitimate ways, but ways taht beat the system none the less. Word gets out about that, and that sort of riles everyone up, adds a lot of stress to the whole thing for all concerned.

As much as I've always defended it, more and more, I find myself thinking that I wouldn't much mind seeing FastPass just go away altogether. Makes it a little easier to get around the parks, the lines then are what they are, and everyone decides to deal with a particular line, or not.

Give me the simple life.