Originally Posted By Rex62 Iam aware of the history of Walt Disney and His old partner Ub Iwerks.Does anyone think he deserves a window on MAIN STREET USA?I dont have anything against him so Iam opening this up to get some feed back.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros The windows are for people who did something significant. While he did a ton for Disney movies (and the film industry in general), to my knowledge he never did anything for DL. I believe that he is already a Disney Legend, which I think is a much more fitting honor for him. I could be wrong, but I don't think he ever did anything for the park (other than special effects for movies that later inspired attractions in the parks), and all the windows are currently for people directly involved with the parks at some point (with the exception of Walt's father, who got the original window in 1955).
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost I don't want to sound bitter because it didn't happen to me, but according to all accounts, Walt treated him terribly. The fact of the matter may very well be that Walt Disney wouldn't even be heard of today if it hadn't been for him. He was the talent and the skill behind all of Disney's early animation. Without him Walt would have been nothing. As much as I admire Walt Disney, I think that the way Ub was treated was cruel and without justification. He deserves much, much more than a window. He deserves the credit that is due him. Without him, much of what you see and experience today would not be a reality.
Originally Posted By Rex62 I agree with you Goofyernmost. I just recently received a DVD with UBs greatest works gosh its really strange and not for kids.It was really good.
Originally Posted By Rex62 I really enjoy those early classics like Minnies yoo hoo and the skeleton dnace.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>The windows are for people who did something significant.<< For Disneyland, I think you mean. Being the only guy who stuck with Walt through the Oswald fiasco, and then being chief animator on "Steamboat Willie" and "The Skeleton Dance" - that was pretty significant.
Originally Posted By wonderingalice And I'm not an expert on Ub's work (did watch a great cable special on him recently, though), but "Steamboat Willie" - and more of his work? - has been playing FOREVER in the Main Street Cinema and it's highlighted to draw people in. That alone connects him to Disneyland in my book.
Originally Posted By mawnck <a href="http://legends.disney.go.com/legends/detail?key=Ub+Iwerks" target="_blank">http://legends.disney.go.com/l...b+Iwerks</a> Interesting sentence near the bottom there ... >>Later, during the 1960s, he contributed his genius to developing Disney theme park attractions, including It's a Small World, Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln and the Hall of Presidents.<<
Originally Posted By mawnck Oh hey ... there's also this ... <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/26904205@N00/814585692" target="_blank">http://www.flickr.com/photos/2...14585692</a> ;-)
Originally Posted By DBitz2 Didn't he develop or at least have something to do with the development of CircleVision? That is not an insignificant part of Disneyland's history.
Originally Posted By karlg Re #3 By Goofyernmost > I don't want to sound bitter because it didn't happen to me, but according to all accounts, Walt treated him terribly. < I’ve read quite a bit about Disney history and I don’t see where you get “to all accounts, Walt treated him terribly” from. I think it accurate that Walt didn’t always share enough credit, but that is far from treating Ub terribly. It does look like Walt may have taken him for granted. But originally they brought him in as a partner and Ub was given exceptionally good screen credit for his work originally. Apparently the big rift came in that Ub wanted to work “straight ahead” and do all the work himself when Walt was wanting to go with the more systematic approach of Animator doing key frames with Assistants doing in-betweens, and Cleanup to get more production. Ub wanted to keep doing things his way, what was known as straight ahead animation and Walt wanted Ub to use the newer approach. Ub’s approach was becoming obsolete. His way of drawing was obsolete and Walt was hiring more skillful artist like those that became.” The Nine Old Men” and he was able to use his genius for developing optical processes. Ub’s methods were necessary in a very small studio doing “older style” animation. Walt was thinking about how to get more high quality output and how to leverage the top animators with more people and this was clearly necessary to do feature length pictures like Snow White. Since Ub went with Powel who was a crook by all accounts, it must not have cause a lot of distrust by Walt. But Walt still allowed Ub to rejoin the studio 10 years after he left. If Walt was so terrible, he would have never let Ub rejoin. Apparently Walt even encourage Ub’s efforts in optical processes (sodium matt process used to composite animation and live action, 16mm to 32mm conversion used in the True Life Adventures, and the 360 Circlevisions) and other special effects. In some ways I think it was good that Ub left and came back to a different carrier. He had a whole second career that was in many ways more successful than he was as an animator. Walt was never one to complement someone to their face (that is how he treated everyone), but the fact that Walt kept financing Ub’s activity was a sign that Walt supported him. When Walt’s and Ub’s old boss from Kansas City came, Walt invited Ub down and there are pictures of them looking pretty happy together. I seriously doubt Ub would have returned and stayed another 26 years (1940 to 1966) while Walt was alive if Walt was treating him badly. By the accounts I have read he was treated as a valuable employee but not like a “partner.” By all accounts I have read, Walt respected Ub’s genius, but Walt was not very good and expressing how he felt about the people working for him. But he seemed to have this problem with everyone.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost There are a couple of books out that paint an entirely different picture of this situation. Ub was a man of little self confidence. Big talent but no ability to market himself. Every attempt he made to move on and stop feeling belittled by Mr. Disney was met with failure. He kept coming back because he had no place else to go. Walt would ride him constantly, belittling him personally and making him feel awful. I don't think Walt was even aware that this was the result of his needling the man, but it was and a person as creative and "sensitive" as Walt Disney should have been able to realize that and treat his friend with just a little more respect. If Ub was so unwilling to change how did he become such a huge contributor to all the new and inventive ideas that came out of Disney Imagineering...the multi level camera is something that Ub was completely involved with and with its creation.
Originally Posted By karlg Re #16; I would be interested in what references you have for your statement. I certainly believe that Walt was taking Ub for granted and pushing him hard in the late 1920’s. But you make it sound like he was doing this Ub’s whole career . I don’t doubt that Walt could hack off people, even those who Walt at one time or another had respected, but I don’t think Ub would have gone back and stayed if he was treaded “terribly” as you stated. I think the “Hand Behind the Mouse” book gives a fairly even handed view giving the good as well as the bad. Certainly there was some tension that caused Ub to leave in the first place. Walt could be callous or indifferent even to some of his best people including Ken Anderson (who Walt may have driven to a stroke with his criticism of 101 Dalmatians use of Xerography, which Ub also help develop) and Ward Kimball (whom he almost fired after a flap over Babes in Toyland). Where did you get “Every attempt he made to move on and stop feeling belittled by Mr. Disney was met with failure?” From what I’ve read, Ub only tried to come back to the studio once and stayed from 1940 until his death in 1971. While Walt was somewhat indifferent at first in re-hiring Ub to the fairly menial task of “checking”, Walt reportedly (“Hand Behind the Mouse” page 160) told Sharpsteen that Ub was being wasted because, “He is a genius.” In 1943 Walt himself made Ub the head of the newly developed Optical Printing Department. This is where Ub developed printing processes for combining live animation and cartoons such as was used in Song of the South, Saludos Amigos, and Mary Poppins. Also the Disney multi-plane camera was developed while Ub was away from the studio. I have seen this misreported elsewhere lately, but Ub left in 1930 and the multi-plane camera was developed in the mid 1930’s at Disney. Ub developed a similar system (for a lot less money but not as good) that was horizontal and not vertical for his own studio. Ub was responsible to setting up the Disney Multi-plane camera on his return to the studio in the 1940’s, but it was originally developed at Disney while Ub was at his own studio. Walt certainly was no Saint and he could be hard on his people. But there are also a lot of hatched job books and articles out there that overstate the bad and ignore what Disney did for his people.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost Two sources that I have readily available are Disney's World by Leonard Mosley and Walt Disney by Neal Gabler. Both respectable authors. They didn't make Walt out to be a tyrant, at least not on purpose, but they did show both sides of the man. Both the smiling "Uncle Walt" we all saw and the darker underside that was ego fed and not always commendable. I would never take away from any of the wonderful things that Walt's talents were able to come up with and push for...but he wasn't always the wonderful fellow we imagine. Ub was one of his whipping boys. He owed Ub a lot, especially in the early years and in many ways Walt gave him a lot...everything except dignity. So he, at the very least, deserves a window and by the looks of a post earlier, he did indeed get one.
Originally Posted By karlg Re #18: Once again, I know Walt was no saint and he took people for granted. He also thought he was such old friends with Ub that Ub could take his jibes. By today’s standards, Walt was not a “people person” to his employees. At the same time there were creative differences on how the studio should be animating. This is discussed in Gabler (pp. 143-144) and multiple other sources. While Ub was a creative genius, his style of animating was being passed by animators with more artistic skill and more adaptable to a more “factory approach” versus a single individual approach to animating. By the way, I’m not a big fan overall of Gabler’s book as he goes into flights of speculation too much. “The Animated Man” by Michael Barrier that came out about the same time from a less famous author is MUCH better. Even during the period were Walt and Ub were not getting along around 1930 he supported Ub in creating the Skeleton Dance. By some reports (notably Mosely pp 122-123) Disney was already tiring of Mickey Mouse and wanted to move on to newer things Also understand that Ub was being manipulated by Power's "spy" Giegerich (see Gabler pp. 141-144). Ironically, was Power's cheating of Disney that was putting huge cost pressures on the Studio that had Walt in such a bad mood (and led to his nervous breakdown in the early 1930's). Power's had a one-two punch of putting financial pressure on Disney that made him irritable, while at the same time having his spy nurture seeds of dissatisfaction with Ub. But also according to Mosley (p. 200) Walt did a lot to help save Ub after his studio collapsed (this telling of the reconciliation differs from “Hand Behind the Mouse”). According to Mosley Ub told Walt, “I’m closing down the studio, and you are the only one I could think of to come to for help. I have debts to pay off and I have to find a job. Mosley writes (p. 200): “ ’How much do you need’, Walt asked, reaching for his checkbook. ‘And when can you start? You know I can always find a job for you here. I’ll fix up an office for you.’ “ Mosley then goes on to say how Walt brought Ub into the studio over some objections from Roy Disney. While this is probably the most favorable account to Walt on the reconciliation, by all accounts I have read Walt treated Ub pretty well on Ub’s return and recognized him as a talented individual. It was hardly the case that Walt treated Ub terribly the whole time he was at the studio. I’m not saying that Walt was blameless and didn’t take people for granted, but for much of Ub’s time at the studio, by all account Walt treated him well but maybe not as well as some people would like for someone that had on more than one occasion had saved the Studio. At the same time it while it was very clear than up through 1929 Ub was indispensible to the Disney Studio (as in if Ub did not come for the Alice Comedies and then stay loyal when most left with Oswald the Studio would have folded), by 1930 Walt in some ways was moving beyond what Ub could do on his own and had developed a system where no one was indispensable, save Walt and Roy.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost I understand what you are saying but did Ub's desire to be manipulated stem from how he was treated by Walt or did Walt treat him badly because of his perceived unfaithfulness to Walt. I think it was the first. It doesn't really matter...if Ub felt belittled and put upon he had good reason. I will once again state that I think Walt's good qualities far outweighed his bad ones, but come on. If I had a "friend" that treated me with that much disrespect, I would have jumped ship also. Frankly, if Ub's ventures had been more successful he would never have come back. It was also Walt's desire to use the "old ways" in animation and not take the short cuts that the newer, younger animators were leaning. I don't think that Walt ever had a problem with how Ub went about his work. I got from the stories that Walt just didn't respect people that allowed themselves to be doormats. He didn't like people to contradict him either, but he always knew he was Walt Disney and would always have his way no matter who came up with the ideas. The buck stopped with him.
