Originally Posted By sjhym33 Todays Orlando Sentinel has an article that gives an interesting look at what OSHA has found regarding the July Monorail accident. Very interesting read. <a href="http://thedailydisney.com/blog/2010/02/disney-monorail-crash/" target="_blank">http://thedailydisney.com/blog...l-crash/</a>
Originally Posted By trekkeruss "OSHA ultimately fined Disney $35,200, a 20 percent reduction from the $44,000 in penalties it initially proposed. Disney paid with a check dated Jan. 22." They got a discount. How nice.
Originally Posted By dshyates Of course they got a discount. Everyone gets a discount during "value" season.
Originally Posted By standor Shows that Disney, like Toyota is more interested in the all mighty $$$$$ than the safety of their customers.
Originally Posted By Mr X Or their employees. $35,200 to Disney is like a freakin 36 cent fine to you and I. Nice. If there were any justice in this world, the victim's family would win a judgement of 60.34 billion dollars from DisCo.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: We know what you mean, Mr X, duckling. And we agree with you.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 No surprises at all. It is cheaper for companies to operate like this and then settle when they kill people than it is to do things correctly. Rest assured, if Disney were fined tens of millions of dollars when they had 'incidents' they might change things and put safety and training first. As to Toyota, anyone think it's interesting how viciously (and quickly and efficiently) our government is working to destroy the company. I'm sure it has nothing to do with us owning GM!
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << As to Toyota, anyone think it's interesting how viciously (and quickly and efficiently) our government is working to destroy the company. I'm sure it has nothing to do with us owning GM! >> You mean the same way they paraded the Ford executives in front of Congress a decade ago when they were suffering their Ford Explorer recalls for bad Bridgestone tires? What was the motivation then?
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Rest assured, if Disney were fined tens of millions of dollars when they had 'incidents' they might change things and put safety and training first. >> You are using hyperbole to further your agenda. Of course, you've never worked in the safety management field, so you really have no business in casting judgment in these cases. The safety business is unforgiving because there are no 100% measures to prevent accidents and there are no 100% predictors on when accidents will occur. The fatality-free operation of the WDW monorail system for over 35 years is an example of how you can operate equipment without accidents while there is still risk involved in the system. It's easy to armchair quarterback in hindsight, but incredibly difficult to manage these programs day in and day out. These are dynamic systems with lots of human and mechanical parts.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost ^^^^Absolutely! Otherwise they wouldn't be called accidents, they would be onpurposes.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<The fatality-free operation of the WDW monorail system for over 35 years is an example of how you can operate equipment without accidents while there is still risk involved in the system. It's easy to armchair quarterback in hindsight, but incredibly difficult to manage these programs day in and day out. These are dynamic systems with lots of human and mechanical parts.>> But wasn't it discussed that Disney had changed their SOP's, and this led to, or contributed to this accident? Some of it seems ridiculously boneheaded, like the manager being off-site and "controlling" the situation via radio.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << But wasn't it discussed that Disney had changed their SOP's, and this led to, or contributed to this accident? Some of it seems ridiculously boneheaded, like the manager being off-site and "controlling" the situation via radio. >> I can only speculate, but I'd say there was a good chance that Disney never changed their SOPs. I've worked in safety management before and found it to be one of the most confounding experiences in my life. This monorail incident seems all too familiar to me. I can't tell you how many times I've been a safety observer or inspector and found supervisors in an organization who authorized key employees to be absent during critical events or let people clock out early before hazardous evolutions are complete. In my role as safeter manager, I would halt these operations immediately until the correct personnel were in place. The next day, you find the same organizational supervisors short circuiting the system again by letting people be absent from their assigned role without finding suitable replacements -- even when replacements were readily available. I found the same problems with SOPs. On numerous occasions, I would inspect workers who were following the wrong SOPs, SOPs that they personally altered without approval from higher authority, or working on the fly with their SOP in the corner collecting dust. I have corrected safefy violations, issued punishments and reprimands, only to find the same violations being carried out the very next day by the exact same workers! It's a very frustrating business, requires constant oversight, and frequently requires strict disciplinary measures and draconian punishments to ensure people do the right thing.
Originally Posted By Mr X Can't they just fire such people? I would think that gross negligence would justify immediate termination, or at least automatic demotion to a non-essential (or non-safety related anyway) position.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Can't they just fire such people? >> You can. Sometimes you run out of people faster than you can train and re-hire them, though. I've had that problem before, too.
Originally Posted By -em I read in the sentinel today about some more of the specifics that lead to the accident and I think it boils down to a hideous set of coincidences where the fates aligned just perfectly. Where if the main engineer hadn't called in his replacement wouldn't have been at the controls, if the first coordinator hadn't gotten sick and left at that exact time, if the other 'rail coming in to shop hadn't had issues etc to distract the replacement engineer etc. -em
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<You mean the same way they paraded the Ford executives in front of Congress a decade ago when they were suffering their Ford Explorer recalls for bad Bridgestone tires? What was the motivation then?>> People were dying then ... and, if I recall correctly, it sure didn't happen overnight. Now ... our slow, plodding, unable to do anything government (which OWNS GM) in what seems like mere weeks from when anyone first reported on the subject has leaders in front of Congress and the FBI raiding parts factories. Either Toyota is just as evil as most American companies -- and they picked a very bad time to be exposed -- OR our leadership is actively trying to destroy a company that has been known for quality (as say, opposed to GM) for decades. And I'm not defending Toyota at all here ... I just haven't seen/read/witnessed Toyotas going 120 MPH on their own with helpless drivers who wind up in fireballs of death (hey, remember the Pinto?). There's a problem, but it sure looks like one that's been greatly exaggerated (and I am skeptical of the reasons behind it).
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<You are using hyperbole to further your agenda.>> Often ... just like you do, Goof. But what exactly is my agenda? I'd love to hear your thoughts. <<Of course, you've never worked in the safety management field, so you really have no business in casting judgment in these cases.>> You have no idea what field/fields I've worked in. But you're right, I haven't. And I am casting judgment based on what I have read as well as what I've been told ... I have had rails CMs tell me Disney's 'flippant' 'tude about safety was going to cost lives and, sadly, that has happened. <<The safety business is unforgiving because there are no 100% measures to prevent accidents and there are no 100% predictors on when accidents will occur. The fatality-free operation of the WDW monorail system for over 35 years is an example of how you can operate equipment without accidents while there is still risk involved in the system. It's easy to armchair quarterback in hindsight, but incredibly difficult to manage these programs day in and day out. These are dynamic systems with lots of human and mechanical parts.>> I don't disagree with that at all, largely. But Disney has also been very lucky at times with situations that could have been serious happening when either trains were empty or in stations. Disney hasn't followed its own procedures and has changed them in efforts to improve guest satisfaction and the bottom line. They got away with it all. Until July 5th. That doesn't mean Disney is looking to kill/injure people. That's not good for PR. But safety hasn't always been taken as seriously as it should have. If the OHSHA reports and media reports don't convince you, then spend some time talking with folks in WDW transport circles.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << And I'm not defending Toyota at all here ... I just haven't seen/read/witnessed Toyotas going 120 MPH on their own with helpless drivers who wind up in fireballs of death >> <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-02-17-toyota17_ST_N.htm" target="_blank">http://www.usatoday.com/money/...ST_N.htm</a>
Originally Posted By Mr X Yeah, I was thinking about that 37 number and was planning to write it as a retort... A very sad retort, indeed. Obviously they HAVE big problems, if it killed 37 people then how many have been injured? How many have been in accidents involving this fault? MUST run into the hundreds, just as an offhand guess!
Originally Posted By vbdad55 what caused me pause for thought was when government owned GM offered a $1500 'incentive' to trade your Toyota in on a Chevy for instance. Either really low brow opportunism - or there is some smoke behind the coincidence fire.
