Originally Posted By fastpasswontlast Fastpasses aren't that big of an issue, even though I am fairly often seen bashing them, hence my username, but to say that Fastpasses are what is causing Walt Disney World to decay would be short-handing the matter. The real issue with Disney World is the mentality of its guests. When I was a kid, let's say 5 years of age, I remember very vividly what the experience with Walt Disney World was like, and maybe I am wearing nostalgia goggles or my childhood innocence was still intact, but WDW used to be a much happier place. My family has now grown much older and more experienced, my older brother now almost out of college and my younger brother behind the wheel of a car, my parents rapidly approaching retirement and myself halfway through college (if my plans stay on track); WDW is very different. My father joined the DVC when I was in middle school and since then we have made it a point to head to Orlando once a year (because my dad doesn't know how to save points). This spring break I have spent the last week park-hopping in one of the busiest seasons (albeit with great weather but busy nonetheless) and I can honestly tell you that this is the first time WDW has disappointed me. This entire trip has been scheduling which early openings and late closings are happening and what parks will be the busiest and fastpass strategy. Where does relaxation fit in there? It doesn't for the rest of my family who criticizes me for wasting my time laying around the animal kingdom lodge and watching Okampi. To keep this as short as possible, I will simply say that this schedule mentality is what I think is destroying WDW. How can Disney prevent that? The honest answer is that they won't. To me it seems like a money-making scheme to schedule your own piece of magic instead of just experiencing it; now you have to plan it out to ensure that it's yours. So how could Disney prevent this new mentality that is draining on families and is affecting that quality that Walt Disney so loved? Let me put it in seperate points: 1) The importance of wait times. It seems convenient to know how long it will take to get on a ride, but as I've seen many times, these electronic signs are almost always inaccurate and can vary towards being very off in a good way or a bad way. For instance, I got in the line for Rock N Roller Coaster when the sign said "120 minutes" and it ended up taking less than 15 to get on the ride, "Isn't that a little off, I mean that girl behind me handed them a lanyard and the sign is now down to '110 minutes?'" I asked an employee at the beginning of the line after I rode it. He told me that it was indeed accurate and that I should have a "magical day." I'm no detective but my powers of deduction are shooting off alarms as to why the sign would say that and why the employees would shrug off my questions... Maybe they were trying to scare guests into the single rider lines (which brings me to my second point). 2) Single Rider Lines Now, on Rock N Roller Coaster, the single rider line isn't a bad thing. Since the cars are in two seat rows, there would be a lot of empty seats and that's inefficient for such a high demand attraction. The problem comes more with rides like Test Track where ride photos for the avearge size family are easily ruined by going elbow to elbow with strangers. Also, that ride has so much down time between the "tests" that talking to my family is really awkward since a stranger is sitting inches from my face listening to what should be private conversations. I've grown to hate families that go single rider on Test Track (especially when even the wait sign shows 45 minutes or less (and that's usually wrong anyways))... If you're at a park with your family, don;t go single rider just to save time, you're giving into the new disney mentality and getting punished for waiting in a line. Also, I've been in a single rider line (as an actual single rider) and it took much longer than the normal line (I tracked the guy at the end of the regular line when I joined and he must have been more than 15 minutes ahead of me). 3) and of course fastpasses... With a username like mine, how can I not complain about fastpasses? They are the main reason for the disney schedule-your-way magic option (added to your park ticket for no additional cost). With rising park attendance and lines for rides, it seemed like the natural thing to do, but as all diehard disney park-goers know, they have brought pain and sorrow on the experience, most notably at disney world, where your day is determined by how fast you run to Toy Story Mania to get fastpasses. If Disney cared more about providing a great expereince they would sacrifice their safety blanket for people on-the-edge of deciding to come. It's hard to tell a crowd of people to wait in a line whose sign says in red lettering "120 minutes" but honestly, if we Disney took out the wait time signs, would fastpasses be necessary? People would have to wait in line to see how long a line is and they would have the experience of riding a ride because they wanted to, not because they heard it was a "must-ride" and had to fit it into their schedule. I honestly hope someone important at disney has the chance to read this open declaration for an ideal Disney for all park-goers, not just the diehard fans, not just the newcomers, but to create an experience that everyone can enjoy. The first step is taking down the wait time signs, I tell you. The rest will naturally follow, quit stressing out your guests and making them feel they have to ride everything in a day. Let them pick and choose rides based on interest and will and not just how they schedule their day. (don't get me started on the early-late days) And with that I end this huge post and my thoughts on WDW. For the rest of the discussion we can talk about the issues surrounding this, whether I'm right or wrong, and so-forth whatever spawns from this post.
Originally Posted By Christi22222 I think you've hit on something. I already didn't like this new idea of scheduling a visit with Mickey. And I also am skeptical that fastpass is helpful, rather than a wrench in the works like it often appears. But the whole time, time, TIME concept in general is probably the root of it all as you suggest. I have to admit, though, I'd be pretty bummed to get into a line with NO idea how long it was. Of course, with as much anecdotal evidence I've heard and experienced regarding intentionally fudged wait times, I probably don't have any idea how long the lines I'm getting in are now. Basically, TDO wants to maximize profit by squeezing every last person possible into the parks. And that takes some maneuvering in order to not compromise guest experience to such an extent that you anger guests. But even with all of the current maneuvering, my gut says they have crossed the line and are going to face the wrath of guests who are no longer interested in the kind of experience Disney has to offer. I know I'm sitting right on the edge. And while I haven't left entirely, I normally would have been on two trips in the length of time I've gone since the last visit. Time will tell. God help us when Next Gen gets here!
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer ^^^ And that wasn't the most cordial welcome, either. Agreed with many of your points, Fastpasswon'tlast... To put it simply... WDW has become to big for itself, it can't handle that, and it makes up for this by creating a power vacuum for schedules, planing, and insanity on what's supposed to be a vacation.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer (Don't know how or why my post got split) And with that, comes the fact that quality and fun is on the low because of that. WDW is quickly becoming a place where you have to plan everything to the degree, and honestly, that's not for me. I go on whims, I am spontaneous. I have no desire to stress out over something fun. I would certainly hope Disney halts these measures, as it's driving me, and certainly many other fans and vacationers away. Great first post, and welcome !
Originally Posted By vbdad55 like you FP we go to WDW once a year- only difference is your the age of my kids- so let's just say I am a lot older and spend no more time on age- LOL!. As a once a year visitor, and also a visitor in the busiest time of the year ( June-July) - I grew to appreciate fastpass - it has made life a lot simpler for the group of 9 ( now 10) of us who travel there. Also I do not mind making ressies 6 months out because we do 1-2 sit downs a day and getting in the ones we want is also important as I do not travel 1200 miles for a burger.Even the Mickey issue I don't mind because although that M&G is no longer that important to our group ( 2 younger nieces might disagree) -I get why people want to see the mouse. I do draw the line at scheduling rides and shows howevr..even for me this is overkill. But I think your points have validity - but I do not blame Disney for them. I blame the world around us where everything and I mean everything has to have immediate gratification for people with the attention span of a gnat. Disney is supplying what a good segment of the population seems to want- although I agree there needs to be somerelaxation involved in a vacaion as well.. at least a balance even at Disney
Originally Posted By DlandDug Disagree with almost everything in the OP. But I can certainly understand the frustration. The world isn't the same as it was when we were all kids. But I can't agree with blaming Disney because these days aren't as "magical." In my experience with Wait Times (and I have rather a lot of this), the posted time is generally about 15-30 minutes longer than the actual wait. This gives a "cushion" if the wait turns out to be a bit longer, and creates a sense of satisfaction if it's shorter. Instead of, "I can't believe we had to wait 45 minutes!" it's "Only 45 minutes? And the sign said 60!" SIngle Rider lines are a gamble indeed. But then, they aren't intended to serve as a front door pass for groups-- just a way for single riders to (hopefully) get ahead of the game. FastPass is great! As all diehard disney park-goers know (and don't you just love qualifiers like that?), not everyone likes them and not everyone understands them. But it's a free service, available to all, and it seems to have generated some level of acceptance and good will. I personally use them only when I am in the Parks with a group. As far as the whole "scheduled" mentality goes, it's really up to each individual, or the dynamic of your group. My family did WDW last Christmas, and generally had a good time. We don't have a compulsion to see and do everything, which helps a lot. We did get some reservations in advance, so that was about the extent of our "musts" during the visit. Hope that this thread doesn't devolve into another snippy shouting match between those who hate FP and those who don't. We shall see.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Welcome to the boards. Suffice it to say, I agree with everything in the original post, to the letter. Having seen the impact of the FP tests for Crush Coaster, it cemented my loathing of it. Also, as a child, I much prefered the making reservations the morning of your visit, walking along a continually moving line (rather than the stop start fast pass increases), and generally relaxing while having fun. As for the dining reservations, they are great when things go to plan, but when your kids get sick and you want to change reservations, forget it, there is not a chance in hell if the parks are moderately busy.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Also, as a child, I much prefered the making reservations the morning of your visit, walking along a continually moving line (rather than the stop start fast pass increases), and generally relaxing while having fun.<<< Those days are so long gone. :-( *remembers waiting in the Castle for a reservation, and then waiting in line for 20K 10 mins later* Sigh.
Originally Posted By DlandDug Oh! Forgive me for not welcoming you to the LP discussion boards. Please stop in at the Community section and introduce yourself!
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I'm not convinced it is a Walt Disney World issue. I think it is a Magic Kingdom issue. Even with the growth of the property (Epcot, the Studios and AK) still the most "friendly" park for a child under 8 is the Magic Kingdom. Expanding Fantasyland is a good start but that still drives that family demographic to the MK over the other parks. On your typical five day vacation how many times do you think the avearge family repeats the MK versus repeating the other parks? I'd guess it is overwhelmingly the MK. I shared my experience last Monday. The Magic Kingdom was absolutely packed but when we park hopped to the Studios and Epcot you wouldn't have known it. Those parks, while busier than the winter months, were still much more comfortable. Standby waits were reasonable (other than Soarin and TSMM). The real solution might be to come up with a Fantasyland type of "land" for one of the other parks...or create something like a Disney Heroes park as opposed to a Disney Villains park. It might not be a popular use of capital dollars on these boards but it might more specifically address what I think the real issue is.
Originally Posted By MinnieSummer WahooSkipper, I got slammed a few years back for daring to suggest that MK was geared more to the younger kids than the other parks. And I still think that is a large part of the problem. Families are going to spend more time there and if they go in thinking they can be spontaneous they will be sadly dissappointed. I use to love our last minute trips to WDW but they aren't as much fun as they used to be -- the reason? Obviously because I can't just go anymore, I have to plan in advance for everything from hotels to meals to parks. And the thought of having to schedule Character meets in advance and ride times, well it kind of takes the fun out of things. I am slowly weening myself from WDW and spending more time at Seaworld and Univ. I can still be spontaneous there.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<On your typical five day vacation how many times do you think the avearge family repeats the MK versus repeating the other parks? I'd guess it is overwhelmingly the MK.>> I would tend to agree with this - though for me personally, EPCOT is the park I spend the most time at. But I would guess that the MK is the most attended. And hard as they try, Disney has never really been able to re-create the success that is a Disneyland-style park. <<The real solution might be to come up with a Fantasyland type of "land" for one of the other parks>> I like this idea - as long as it's not in EPCOT. But both Hollywood Studios and Animal Kingdom could easily incorporate a more "Fantasy"-themed land. Animal Kingdom could have the Beastly Kingdom area, or something similar. And at the Studios, how about expanding on the Animation Courtyard concept. I always felt they missed an opportunity to re-create the success of Fantasyland there. With the theme being Disney Animated Movies, they could easily incorporate C/D-ticket style Fantasyland rides and shows.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I don't think that the MK is geared more towards kids than adults. I think the MK is the most geared toward kids of all the parks. That is a subtle difference, but an important one. There are plenty of great things that adults want to do from the "Mountain" attractions to the nostalgic rides like Mansion, Pirates and Jungle. But, of the four parks it is the most conducive to the entire family, young children included. And, whether people like it or not, the Princesses are a HUGE draw. Since seeing them is pretty much a sure thing at the Kingdom but not elsewhere (besides character breakfasts) then it stands to reason parents are going to be pretty much forced in the visit. That was my situation Monday. Epcot was pretty calm Monday but my 4 year old daughter just HAD to see princesses. We tried to placate her at Epcot but it wasn't happening. Took the kids to the Studios and my son and I split from my wife and daugther. We did the two stunt shows and they went over to the Mermaid show and the Playhouse Disney thing. But, if you really think about it, there isn't a heck of a lot a four year old girl is going to really enjoy at the Studios. The sure thing? The Magic Kingdom. Thus, crazy crowds. I heard that at one time they were toying in Japan about putting two Magic Kingdoms side by side (idential parks) in order to deal with their crowds. Might have crossed their minds for Florida too. But, I do think they could make some type of investment (ala plp's Animation Courtyard concept) that would draw some of the Fantasyland contingent into another park. It reminds me of when they installed the Honey I Shrunk the Kids walk through at the Studios. We waited FOREVER for that attraction when it first openend and I'm convinced it wasn't because that movie was so popular but because there was a lack of "kid stuff" to do at the Studios.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip WDW is what it is. In my opinion, the experience hasn't changed all that much in the twenty years I've been going there. What HAS changed? I have. The twentieth year with your wife isn't the same as the first year. Neither is WDW. Not necessarily worse... just different. What was once new and exciting is now old and familiar. But if you let it, that familiarity can lead to content, not disappointment. Knowing what to expect can be comforting and enjoyable. The enjoyment of shared memories and experiences takes the place of the excitement of the unknown. Will ANY visit to WDW ever compare with my first? Of course not... there is no way it could. But when you visit, if you let yourself experience not just the present moment, but also the memories of a lifetime, the magic remains forever.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I don't buy that Road trip, I have been to DL litterly 100's of times and still have amazing (but different experiences). soon I will be going to Disneyland Paris for the 56th time. It has it's ups and downs, the downs normally comes from the clowns trained in Florida. But WDW - 1981 - disappointing. 2000 - my honeymoon, amazing. 2006, well lets say it was my worst Disney trip ever. I am not buying the familiarity breeds contempt issue. WDW is too big, and poorly managed compared to the other resorts.
Originally Posted By tashajilek I am so used to going to DL that i am afraid my WDW trip will be a bit of a stress. I guess i have to just go and see what happens lol.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Dave... of course I disagree. I think many things at WDW are better than when I first went there: 1) Splash Mountain 2) Tower of Terror 3) Rock & Roller Coaster 4) Addition of the AK 5) TSMM at MGM Do I wish some things were better? Of course I do. We all want the best. But overall the main difference in the experience between my first time and when I visited last January is that it was no longer the first time. The first time is always the best... for EVERYTHING! Same thing applies to Disneyland for me. My last visit there was great because of the LP meet. Other than that, I found the park more than a little irritating. The inability to get ANYWHERE once people started camping out for Fantasmic meant the rest of my night there was nothing but a PITA. I know. I’m letting one experience color my opinion of the park. You do the same… your last experience at WDW was poor and you’ve had nothing good to say about it since then. I understand.
Originally Posted By standor The idea of having to plan your dining, atrractions etc. 6 months in advance takes away the fun of being on vacation. Vacation means doing what you want, when you want. Doing things on schedule ruins it for me.
Originally Posted By Disneymom443 I happy that you said "for Me". For me, all the little planning is what I love for my vacation. I plan more than six months out and can't wait for my 6 months out to finally get to book for my sitdown meals. This is my magical vacation.
