Originally Posted By skinnerbox Why is it so difficult for long-time Disney fans to not see what the company has been doing to the US parks for the past decade? It's more about the gift shop at the exit than the fabulousness of the ride itself. It's all about the synergy of brand promotion. Gone are the days of doing something cool just because it's cool. This company is no longer run by Walt. This ain't your daddy's Disney. How much longer before the die-hard fans finally figure this out?
Originally Posted By utahjosh I think we all know it. We just still love what we grew up loving, and we love when things are still done right every once in a while.
Originally Posted By fkurucz Nostalgia has a lot of staying power, but it onl goes so far. We haven't been back for 2 years
Originally Posted By avimagine Corporations care, they know you want to purchase more than you can afford, they know you understand cost cutting must be made for the shareholders and executives to prosper. Without such concessions, surely the Corporation would wither.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo agreed Skinnerbox. What is sad is how people defend it. I have no desire to return to WDW. Disneyland still has some memories and I am intrigued to see the new entrance and Carsland, but am saddened at the tooning of DCA. DLP is a given as we bought a villa there, thinking that after at the time 30 years of a disney obsession, I would never lose the interest. Though I am intrigued with visiting the Asian parks, it sounds like there is promise there as they have not given up on that market in the same way as the US. But yes, Iger sucks and he can kiss my....
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I guess it isn't a secret...but the company hasn't been run by Walt since 1966. There can't be a lot of posters here who had visited Disneyland before Walt died, can there? So, let's get past that. Maybe I can't clasify myself as a "die-hard Disney fan" but I enjoy Epcot, Disney Studios and Animal Kingdom. I think Typhoon Lagoon and Blizzard Beach are fabulous. All of those parks were built post-Walt. Magic Kingdom did get stale for me over the past 10-15 years but I've visited so often during that time I'm not sure I have a fair perspective on that. To someone who is visiting for the first time I have to believe it is still a sensory filling experience. I'm not a huge fan of the "look" of Downtown Disney but I stop there every time I'm in the area so what does that say?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Well that is the funny thing Wahooskipper. During the Card Walker Days, Ron Miller and especially in Eisner's first 10 years, Disney got even more amazing (though Roy Disney Jr. was still involved). Now it is a cold marketting channel in the main, and if I lived near the parks, I might not actually be as harsh. But when I see the decline over the last 11 years especially, and the cost of taking my family rising while quality diminishes, and then the competition take the stakes up, well it breaks my heart. I want Disney to be the best across multiple dimensions. Those dimensions are diminishing.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***So, let's get past that*** It's a pretty weak argument to say "Walt Disney is dead, so let's not care about what he stood for", isn't it? We still have video and interviews and all KINDS of information about Disney's intentions for his parks, his ideals, and what he cared most about. Some in Disney management today understand, respect, and care about that. Some don't. But that doesn't mean just because the idealist has died his ideals have to die with him. We know ALL about Disney and his desire to invent parks that 1) were places the whole family could enjoy together, and 2) places that cared about quality and upkeep bigtime, and 3) places that cared about something called "good show" (I'm reminded of a quote from Disney, when one of his monorails was taken offline during a slow period and when he asked about it was told "well, it wasn't busy enough to run two monorails" and Walt's reply was something like "I don't care HOW busy it is, it's part of the show!"...even decades after his passing, it's easy enough to go back to that comment (and so many others) and realize what was in his mind as far as making an amusement park into something more special...any manager today can understand that, with just a touch of research, any suit can learn too, and any customer who sees the downfall in quality can complain about it, too! Because, all said and done, Walt Disney's idea of a quality place for the whole family to enjoy WAS the right idea, and continues to be the right idea even today. So, why allow the "sharp pencil boys" to abandon it? Heck no, we shouldn't! Because if enough consumers stand up and tell them so, they WILL listen (many still understand it to this day, they just need a reminder, OR some only need more support from the customers in order to show a thing or two to those sharp pencil boys yet again...since Walt Disney died, we've gotten some brilliant stuff such as Epcot, Animal Kingdom, Disneyland Paris, Enhanced attractions at Tokyo Disneyland, and of course DisneySea...it CAN be done, we just have to vote with our feet and our wallets and our voices, and that also means COMPLIMENTING the company and the execs on what they do RIGHT, which is still a heck of a lot even today!).
Originally Posted By A Happy Haunt Fer sure! When I was a kid my Dad would hit the Main St. Opening, take 101 photos of the Castle stageshow, book our dinner resi's & then return to The Poly to wake us up!!! Now I have to stress 180 days out over FOOD! Help me Walt!
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer The thing is... It doesn't matter if your Daddy's Disney. It hasn't been Walt's company in a very, very long time. Though it's painful to admit, it's true. From 1965 on, they've been doing things without their inspiration, and that's fine. It worked for them. They were incredibly successful on their own. Look at the MK. Looks at EPCOT. Look at the parks abroad. Up until sometime in the late 90's, there was VISION guiding the company. THAT'S whats needed. VISION. That's what made Disney, "our Daddy's" version. Luckily enough, I got to see that in the early 90's, and for a the briefest of seconds in 2000. Right now? It's not guided by vision. It's just the simple idea of brand propagation, of synergy, and of franchises keeping them afloat. That's needed... but not to be the guiding idea of the company. It's a creative company. We need something new and creative to guide it. For the record, I don't want my Dad's Disney back. I don't even want MY original Disney back. I want a new, revitalized, modern Disney. Doing new things, exciting things, things only Disney would do, and a Disney that's moving forward. Not just treading water.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Epcot put it into better words. Eisner certainly wasn't inspired only by Walt. I don't think Walt would have felt very excited about the original Pleasure Island but it was visionary at the time. I think that is the real issue. Disney isn't really tackling dreams. Even with the Fantasyland makeover it sure doesn't look like they are pushing the envelope of theme park design/build with the attractions. They look good on paper...but they certainly aren't visionary. Test Track, like it or not, was visionary in the sense that it was something untried and...well...untested. Of course, they took a lot of grief over the fact that it took a couple of years to get the kinks worked out. Mission: Space was pretty visionary too. Aladdin's Carpet Ride? Not so visionary. Iago in the Tiki Room, not so much. From that perspective, I understand the point of view.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Test Track, like it or not, was visionary in the sense that it was something untried and...well...untested. Of course, they took a lot of grief over the fact that it took a couple of years to get the kinks worked out. Mission: Space was pretty visionary too.<<< I would agree, there, but I think the only qualms I have about those two would be the execution. TT has nothing to do with the future, or optimism. It's stuck, very painfully in the 1990's. That's easily fixed with aesthetics and changes to what goes on with your vehicle. As for M;S, I think it's great. But it's just a ride. EPCOT is about the full pavilion experience... It needs more. But at it's basis, yes, those two attractions push the envelope for ride systems, and that's a pretty great thing.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost I am getting tired of the Walt references as well. The second guessing if Walt would have approved, Walt this and Walt that. I personally, and just posted it someplace, believe that Walt Disney was one of the most influential people that ever lived and wasn't a politician. I commented on being on an upper floor of a Kissimmee Hotel and knowing that everything I saw for miles was directly because of Walt Disney. With that said, I find the idea of his being the only force behind all that success is completely foolish. One of Walt's main talents was his ability to surround himself with extremely talented people. One of the more obvious examples of that is WDW. The only thing in WDW that even slightly resembles anything Walt had in mind is MK and I'm sure even that ended up being only about 50% of his thoughts. Yet, in spite of that WDW has been one of the worlds most successful ventures. Successes don't exist simply as an idea, yes, the original thought and location, was Walt's. The actual construction and final result was not Walt's. He was long dead by then. It was the talent left behind that was able to make such a wonderful place. Was Walt's influence involved? In the beginning yes, but after that it was someone else. It was someone else that came up with Spaceship Earth, Imagination, Verizon, World of Motion, Test Track, Nemo, Soarin, Everest, Safari, Typhoon Lagoon, Blizzard Beach. As you can see I can go on and on and none of these things had any influence directly from Walt Disney. Walt lived on in the form of others that were never given the credit due them. Walt Disney lit the fire...the rest have stoked it ever since and have done a very good job. We live in an economics based world, it is incredible to think that there will be no economic influence in a theme park. Without some sort of control Disney would have been broken up into little pieces back in the early 90's and sold for parts. Walt had great ideas and they have carried on long after his death, but that is where it stops. He is no more responsible for todays WDW then Henry Ford is for the style of new cars, or the Wright Bros. for the design of jet planes. No this ain't my daddy's Disney, it is much, much more. It is new technology with exciting new advances in the things that those attractions can do and what type of experience they can give us. So, I, personally (no spring chicken here btw) am glad that things have gotten where they are. I don't believe everything is perfect but I have lived long enough to know that there really is no such thing as perfection and I have no intention of spending whatever is left of my life bitching because I can't find it. I intend to look at everything and evaluate it for what it is not what I think it should be. If I don't like something, well, so what. If everyone feels that way, it won't be around for long anyway. If, on the other hand, I don't like it but others do, well then I might just have to accept that my opinion is not accepted by the masses and move on.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I think what has been missing is the "What will they think of next?" excitement. It seemed, rightly or wrongly, that there was always some cool new thing brewing either behind construction walls or in the planning stages or even just as concept art. For me, the excitement was always as much about what would be in the future as much as what was here in the present. Disney as a company isn't stagnant, they are building theme parks in other lands. But renderings of Shanghai Disneyland, while neat, might as well be renderings of Disneyland Mars -- I am unlikely to ever visit them. And part of the reason that it ain't your daddy's Disney is because this is the era of daddy's grandkids. And the grandkids expect lots of character interaction, rides, merch. That's what the modern fans want, Disney has it exclusively, and so they're giving the public what it wants. For old school fans, it's a hard pill to swallow. But it's the reality.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <I think what has been missing is the "What will they think of next?" excitement. It seemed, rightly or wrongly, that there was always some cool new thing brewing either behind construction walls or in the planning stages or even just as concept art. > World of Color had that vibe for me. Carsland does too, to a lesser extent. The new entrance to DCA is a great step in the right direction, but it's a shame it's a "fix" rather than something great being added to something already greaet.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<I don't believe everything is perfect but I have lived long enough to know that there really is no such thing as perfection and I have no intention of spending whatever is left of my life bitching because I can't find it.>> I'm not looking for it, either. But I am looking for value for my vacation dollar. Disney no longer provides it. For the premium costs of a Disney theme park vacation... The rides should be fully operational with no worn out, missing, or broken elements that don't get fixed for months if not years. The merchandise should be varied from shop to shop and at least half of it should be unique to the individual land or park or resort from which it's being sold. The food should be fresh, first rate quality and somewhat healthier than mainstream fast food, served at the appropriate temperature (hot food served hot and cold food served cold). The restaurants should have a minimum number of same day reservations available to resort guests on a first come, first serve basis, and a minimum number of same day walk-up reservations available to all at the venue. The transportation system should have reasonable transit times between the resorts and the parks so it doesn't take an hour or more to get from your room to the main gate, most of which is spent waiting for the bus to show up then wasted traveling from resort to resort to resort on your way to the park. These should be mandatory offerings for the exorbitant cost of a Disney theme park vacation. But sadly, these are the very things which have been slowly slipping into decay over the past decade, so the company can maximize its bottom line. If it weren't for the constant and perpetual discounting Disney now engages in, they'd be losing far more market share than they already have. That right there is the most telling indicator of how Disney has trapped themselves with decreasing quality and increasing prices. Even Disney knows it's product is overpriced, or else they wouldn't need to constantly offer free dining and discounted rooms and hoppers. What a very sad corner Disney has painted themselves into. For this reason, I no longer spend my annual vacations at Disney. There are far better choices for my vacation dollar now.
Originally Posted By avimagine My take, let's get rid of the MBA's and use the Engineers, Designers etc. Remove the red tape (Go back to engineering on the fly), if you put quality in you can get results. Stop worrying about sales and metrics and opinion groups, go with the gut.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Skinner...you want hot food served hot and cold food served cold? I can't get that right at my house for a family of four! I do agree that transportation needs to be improved. There is an area where they could be "visionary"...and where Walt once was. I don't know if I've ever seen the figures but I'd love to know the percentage of Resort guests in the parks versus non resort guests...and even cast members and guests with those numbers as well. That would tell me a lot about things such as the premium seating priority figures and so forth. I've got to say, I've given up on merchandise. I used to be a frequent shopper at the Disney Store and formerly with the Disney Catalog. I'll still pop into DTD and the Christmas store in particular but I'm over buying Disney merchandise anymore. But, if I was going to spend the type of money necessary for a "premium Disney facation" (multi-day presumably) then I likely wouldn't go to Disney on that vacation. Maybe I'd do a Disney Cruise but in all reality I'd probably be on a non-Disney vacation.
Originally Posted By avimagine <- Tends to cruise with Royal Caribbean, sacriledge I know.(And yes you can tell I'm not fabulously wealthy by my choice of lines)
