Originally Posted By dresswhites most the times i have been on the matterhorn over the last year, there never seems to be a cm manning the console where you exit bobsleds. this seems to create confusion because people aren't sure they are supposed to exit. most the times the next cm down the line will notice and gesture you to exit, but not always.. this seems like an odd position to drop because it seems like it would be a safety position. i know i am supposed to exit but i do always kind of worry when i am exiting that the bobsled may start while i am doing so. anyone else notice this? also most of this morning there was no grouper. don't get me wrong i don't think the ride is being run unsafely. i just think its odd that the lawyers and state made the park put railings on the alice leaves and have added many other redundant things to attractions, but don't seem to notice or have a problem with a reduced cm staffing on a major ride. thoughts?
Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub I have noticed many obvious lapses in judgement also (most recently a security issue with Southwest onboard). As I thought about it I realized that ultimately our money as the consumer is paying for all this new security but we have no way to ? any aspect of all. We just assume "they" are more "expert" than actual life/reality.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: My sisters and I have noticed this same thing. When we were last there during the summer of 2009, it seemed understaffed to us as well.
Originally Posted By mickeymorris1234 I don't think it's under staffed, it's just they don't need all those staffers. Ever since the gates were put in they stopped having a grouper unless it is a really busy day and there really is no need to have a person saying exit this way when they now have a recording and a big ol sign. The car's release is mainly controlled by the very last stop before you enter the mountain, if that car is stopped then the whole station is stopped so as long as that one spot is manned (which it always is) then there really is no reason to have staff up and down the station doing nothing.
Originally Posted By Manfried I thought under the new OSHA rules for the parks that position was supposed to be staffed?
Originally Posted By avatarmickey115 i saw someone get off at the block section right before you are really supposed to get off...you know where that fence is? someone got up and hopped right over it...the whole family actually. i face-palmed in my car behind them.
Originally Posted By MoondoggieCA That's interesting, dress, because when I worked the Matterhorn years ago, the unload position would often get dropped when we pulled sleds and/or line attendance would decrease. And people were pretty good about knowing when to get out. If they didn't, you would just motion them from the load position, and they'd hop out. I don't ever remember that being too much of a problem. I do remember that they would sometimes try to get out where that "movable" fence (we used for unloading at the table) was located, so you just had to keep an eye on it from load (if there was no unload person). What I did find bizarre though was how some guests would step into the sled and try to sit next to each other rather than in front of one another. And when they didn't speak English it could be pretty interesting trying to motion to them how you wanted them to sit. You would think people would be watching multiple guests in front of them step into the sled and would get the message as to how they're supposed to load. As far as the staffing question though, again it depended on how busy it was, and how many sleds were operating. I will say though that I have noticed them dropping the grouping position at times. But maybe the gates do have something to do with that. The only time I ever remember working load...and having to also group from the load position... was later in the evening when we had way fewer sleds on the track, station backups were almost impossible, and the line had dropped way off (think almost walk-on status). Funny how I hadn't even noticed the unload console on Matterhorn until my last visit. Dark rides...yes. And I'm assuming those unload consoles on the dark ride rotations must make working those attractions much easier now. Having to load, dispatch, and jog each ride vehicle through the station, while making sure people were exiting at the other end of the station was like playing a video game.
Originally Posted By MoondoggieCA And just to add...no worries about the sled advancing from unload while you're exiting. That should be still controlled by load (even with the unload consoles in place and nobody manning it). When I worked there we didn't even have an unload console, and the only way the sled at unload advanced was if the CM working load allowed it to do so. And you were always watching to make sure guests were clear of the sled. You had the e-stop too just in case someone who had exited turned and headed back to the sled to retrieve something or whatever.
Originally Posted By Disneydanny <...no worries about the sled advancing from unload while you're exiting. > happened to me once fortumatly they quickly noticed and stopped the sled. no harm done thank goodness.
Originally Posted By MoondoggieCA Sorry that happened, Danny. I guess my comment should have been "assuming the CM at load is watching," that shouldn't happen. When we dropped the unload position, being alert (at load) to what was happening at unload was a given. Watch guests exiting at unload and make sure they're clear of the sled.
Originally Posted By gadzuux So what are those guys up in the skybox doing? That looks like the job to have - way up there.
Originally Posted By TMICHAEL What skybox? The CM in the chalet above and between the two tracks? That is the dispatch position and he/she controls the entire mountain. And yes, that was my favorite position.
Originally Posted By Manfried I don't understand why the unload position is not staffed. I think that is very dangerous and inviting accidents and lawsuits. Is Disney trying to cheapen up and not staff the attraction the way they should?
Originally Posted By Westsider This topic has been interesting to read over the past week. It always fascinates me when well-meaning guests who know very little about theme park operations, or absolutely nothing about the operation of a completely one-off and bizarrely unique design like Matterhorn Bobsleds 1959 and 1978, spend time with conjecture on what they think Disneyland is doing when it comes to staffing and operating the facilities Disneyland has owned for up to half a century. I've never worked Matterhorn myself. But I work with a woman who has worked Matterhorn since just after they went to the double-sled setup in 1978. And so, reflecting on this thread, I asked her. Her summary? The staffing described here is completely normal and totally safe. Compared to the often bare-bones staffing of the 1970's and 80's, they staff more positions for much longer today than they ever used to, and the staffing now is quite fat and lazy compared to the lean n' mean bare bones staffing of 25 years ago. The staffing at Matterhorn is entirely flexible, as they run between 7 and 10 bobsleds per side. With only 7 bobsleds on the track, as they do in the early morning or late evening hours or during very slow days, it's completely acceptable and safely designed to run the attraction with 2 people in the station; a Loader and a Belts CM, with a Dispatcher up in the tower watching one or both sides at a time. Adding more sleds means you pick up more positions, with 9 or 10 sleds on a side meaning you've picked up a Grouper, an Unloader, and possibly a second Belts CM. In the 1980's after Disneyland got rid of ticket booths, they often ran with just 2 or 3 people in the station and without a Greeter at the turnstile. But now the Greeter position is always staffed to check heights and explain to every 4th person that Matterhorn does not offer Fastpass. On the busiest days they also run with an End Of Line Greeter who stands behind the mountain checking heights and greeting. The only requiremend DOSH has of Disneyland attractions is that we staff the positions we say we will in the location Operating Guidelines, a document that is authored and owned by Disneyland. Disneyland says it's entirely acceptable to run 7 sleds with 2 people in the station, and so DOSH is happy with that. DOSH inspectors can make recomendations on the operation based on similar attractions in the theme park industry, but with unique things like the Matterhorn or the Submarine Voyage or Small World or Soarin', Disneyland wrote the book and DOSH largely agrees with that. This tenured woman I work with, who spends absolutely no time on the Internet, laughed quite a bit over the fact that people think running Matterhorn without a Grouper is somehow dangerous or inept. She said that if todays AP's who think they know so much about Disneyland could go back in time to 1985, they would be amazed at how little staffing Disneyland often ran its attractions with. You do realize they used to run the Fantasyland dark rides in the 1970's and 80's and into the 90's with just one person, right? And that that single operator had to jog the vehicles through the station manually, using both hands simultaneously with fingers splayed wide open in order to push all four buttons at once to get the Mr. Toad or Peter Pan vehicles to cycle through the hold zones in the station? And that if a person in a wheelchair came up through the exit at Peter Pan or Snow White or Pinnochio or Alice, the operator up at the load zone would get on the station PA and bellow through the loud speaker "Stay there behind the yellow line, I'll let you know when you can board.... Okay, this is your car, GET IN QUICK! JUST LEAVE THE WHEELCHAIR THERE PLEASE! YOUR CAR IS ABOUT TO MOVE FORWARD!! HURRY!" All the while the PA is blasting this to the entire loading area and queue while the lone operator frantically tried to keep all the vehicles in the station moving and prevent the ride from backing up and breaking down. Magical! For the last 10 years there are two people staffing every dark ride station, with easy push button living and alarmed safety chains, and custom vehicles with the sidewalls cut out for quick loading from wheelchairs. And never a yelled or cross word spoken over the PA system, just easy boarding for anyone with a wheelchair or Guest Assistance Card. And yet some folks still think they know better about how Disneyland should be operated, and that somehow today is far worse than the past. They couldn't be more wrong.
Originally Posted By Westsider So that wasy my rant. ;-) dresswhites, as to your original question regarding staffing the "console" at the exit. That's not neccesary unless they are running all 10 sleds on a side. That console is there solely to move the transfer table back and forth in order to pull off sleds off the mainline, or add them back. When you are running 10 sleds you only have a few seconds to spare, and they often pull off a fully loaded sled to open up a parking space in the station to gain 10 or 12 seconds of time to prevent the ride from backing up and breaking down. With the 10th sled online, they staff that position so there is always a CM there to activate the table and pull off a sled if someone takes too long (and extra 7 to 10 seconds) getting in or getting out. Otherwise, it's the Loader who can run back to that console to activate the table and pull a sled offline with a couple seconds to spare, as they do sometimes when they are running 8 or 9 sleds on moderately busy days. With only 7 sleds running, there are enough zones in the station, plus three hold zones after the spashdown pond, to hold 7 sleds without a breakdown. They only have to staff that Unload position to work that transfer table console if they are running all 10 sleds. Make sense?
Originally Posted By Manfried I don't have a problem with the grouper position not being there. But I feel unload should be staffed. It's my view on what could be a dangerous situation at unload. But only when they are running a lot of sleds. I think when they go to the six-person bobsleds, single seating with safety bars, things will be a lot safer.
Originally Posted By Westsider Manfried, I think you are just extrapolating your own limited understanding of the Matterhorn operation on a position that is quite visible (the Matterhorn Unload dock with that moveable gate). Is it because you've seen people jump out before they should at Unload at Matterhorn? Of course, in this bubble-wrapped age of ours, that could be terribly alarming to see someone do that. It happens at Matterhorn Unload even when a CM is staffing the transfer table console, since that CM is still not directly adjacent to the guests in the bobsled that just stopped in the zone ahead of the transfer table. But then you have to consider all of the crazy stunts happening at Disneyland every hour of every day that occur where the average Guest or visiting ex-employee never sees. You do realize that daily people are jumping out of moving boats at Pirates right? Before the first drop, before the second drop, etc. I have lost track of the times I have personally gone down to coax a scared grandma or child or drunk guy down off the rocks at the top of Drop 2 or in the Arsenal Scene before the lift (or off the lift). I once had to calmly walk a clutch of terrified Mexican Nuns who spoke no English along a 10 inch wide strip of ledge from the top of Drop 1 at Pirates and get them safely back to the official evacuation platform after they all started climbing out of the boat ahead of Drop 1 in a panic. Haunted Mansion? Dropped purses and scared kids cause sane, grown adults to bail out of their moving buggies along precipitous drops and steep angles in the dark all the time. Daredevils dive off the back of the Columbia seemingly once per summer, or swan dive off the Mark Twain while their buddies film the stunt for their YouTube accounts. Unless you want to put straight-jackets on every guest as they enter the park, and bubble wrap every right angle and non-foam surface, and remove every stair step and curb in place of gentle 6 degree ramps, you aren't going to human-proof Disneyland. The Matterhorn Unload area at the transfer table is perfectly safe. There is a fence there. There are several signs. There is a spiel in two languages reminding folks to remain safe. There is a CM about 8 feet away staffing the Load console. There is a CM in the chalet looking down on the entire loading area. At some point, humans simply have to take ownership of themselves and only get out of the bobsled once its come to a stop at the labeled unload dock. But it's not surprising that Matterhorn unload area, clearly visible to every armchair Imagineer and semi-informed fanboi in the world as they wait through the queue alongside it, would seem to be a horrific safety violation that must be an example of recent cost-cutting by TDA. Really? Not so much. Matterhorn is safer and more liberally staffed today than it's ever been in the past. Ever see that 1960's clip of Walt riding the Matterhorn with the Shah and Empress of Iran? There was plenty of Iranian secret service and Disneyland security around, but no one staffing Unload on that day either. ;-) Time to put the phone away, and back to work!
Originally Posted By Manfried Okay Westsider, thanks for the long post explaining things. But I still make this observation. Matterhorn is the only Disney rollercoaster ride that doesn't have someone at the unload position. Big Thunder usually does. So does Space Mountain.
Originally Posted By TP2000 But Manfried, there is someone at that unloading area. They are literally a few feet away where you board the bobsleds, even with the bare minimum staffing of two CM's staffing the station. Each bobsled is about 6 or 7 feet long, with a tandem pair probably 15 or 16 feet long including the trailer bar between them. That means the closest person in row 1 is about 8 feet from the CM constantly staffed at the load area, while the furthest person in row 4 of the unloading bobsled is at most 18 feet away. (My perception is that it's not quite that far, maybe closer to 15 feet, but let's just go with the extreme.) How long is a Big Thunder train when it pulls all the way into the station with 1 person on the unload side? 40 feet long? 50 feet? At best the CM on the unload side of Big Thunder (near the back of the train) is a few feet away. But at worst the disembarking guests are 20 or 30 or more feet away from that CM, with dozens of other people now getting in the way by leaving the train and wandering around the unload platform blocking the line of sight of the CM at the console thing. It would seem to me that having a CM a few feet away from the unloading Matterhorn passengers with a clear line of sight is far safer than having a CM dozens of feet away with a constant stream of exiting guests standing in the line of sight of that CM. Or are you suggesting Manfried that a CM stand constantly on the unload area constantly scanning the people sitting in the bobsled as it slowly slides into the unloading position? There's no other ride that has that service offered to disembarking riders.
Originally Posted By MoondoggieCA Someone said the chalet is where you dispatch from now? When I worked Matterhorn, you dispatched from down below, along the track. The tower was the location from which you monitored the mountain, and oversaw breakdown procedures should they become necessary. As to the unload position, it's really not that big of deal not having it. Again, it's based on the number of sleds on the track at any one time, and also gets dropped when the line of guests dies off. And it's very easy to monitor from load. All it takes is a quick glance to make sure guests are clear of the sled. And even if someone is still stepping out, once the sled is dispatched from load, the sled at unload rolls slowly enough that it really isn't all that big of a deal. Easy enough to catch with an e-stop. I never saw an issue at unload though when no one was manning the position. Some clarification though...is there a separate console at unload now? Or is it the table console (at hold) one that's being talked about here? As I mentioned earlier, the dark ride rotations, if anything, were more of a challenge. But even they weren't all that big of a deal. The ride went 101 on occasion because of slow-exiting guests, but not an issue. Having the exit console added must make 101s pretty rare now.
