Originally Posted By Mr F I have done much research of Prop 8 & these are the reasons why to vote "NO" on Prop 8: 1) PROP 8 IS A VIOLATION OF OUR CIVIL RIGHTS. When the law allows a group of people the right to do something but does not allow another group to do the same, that is a violation of civil rights and the constitution, and that is why Prop 8 is Wrong. When women were not allowed to vote, that was a violation of civil rights. When colored people were not allowed to sit at the front of a public bus, and were not allowed to use the same restrooms or drinking fountains as 'white' people, THAT was a violation of civil rights. When interracial couples were not allowed to marry due to there ethnicities, that was also a violation of civil rights. Banning Same Sex marriage is a Violation of Civil Rights because it would prohibit anyone from marrying a person due to their gender. 2) PROP 8 IS SEXIEST. If Prop 8 passes, a Man can still marry a woman and vice-versa, yet if a man wants to marry another man, he cannot, simply due to his gender. Now if his gender were Female, he could freely marry the man he is in love with, but since he is male, he cannot, and THAT is sexist. California's constitution prohibits discrimination due to gender, and Prop 8 would do just that. 3)PROP 8 WOULD NOT HELP OUR ECONOMY. If anything, "no on prop 8" would be more likely to help the economy that not, for more people would be spending money on weddings then not if prop 8 were to pass. If Prop 8 passes, it could mean a potential revenue loss, mainly sales taxes, totaling in the several tens of millions of dollars, to state and local governments. 4) PROP 8 IS UNNECESSARY. Same Sex marriages have been legal and valid in California since June of 2008, and there is no need to reverse that. Legalizing Same sex marriage has not cause the need to raise taxes, nor has it changed anything to education, nor has it imposed on anyone's civil rights, freedom of religion, or free speech. Legalizing Same Sex marriage was NOT majorly devastate or negatively impacted anything economically, in California. We are still the same California that we were before June, Except now same sex couples can marry. WHAT PROPONENTS OF PROP 8 ARE SAYING ABOUT IT: "PROP 8 WILL REQUIRE CHILDREN IN SCHOOLS TO LEARN ABOUT GAY MARRIAGE, IT HAPPENED IN MASSACHUSETTS" - No it won't. California's Constitution is different from Massachusetts, and does not require the teaching of marriage to ANYONE at all. Remember, Same Sex marriage has been legal in California since June of 2008, and there has been NO proposal to have marriage be taught in schools. This is a false scare tactic. PROP 8 has NOTHING to do with children or education because it DOES not mandate what children learn in schools, it is only about marriage and civil rights. "CHILDREN IN SAN FRANSISCO WERE FORCED ON A FIELD TRIP TO ATTEND A SAME SEX WEDDING" - No they were not "Forced". Remember, this was a field trip, and field trips require parents to sign PERMISSION SLIPS. Non of the Parents, nor the children, were forced to do anything, they consented to it. Prop 8 has nothing to do with this because it is NOT about education. "GAY MARRIAGE SHOULD BE ILLEGAL BECAUSE HOMOSEXUALITY IS AGAINST THE BIBLE." - You can believe what you like, but due to our separation of state and church, we cannot base our laws on what religion says, that would be a theocracy, and we ARE NOT a theocracy. California has Manny religions, and it wouldn't be fair to base our laws on one. "GAY MARRIAGE SHOULD BE BANNED BECAUSE TWO PEOPLE OF THE SAME GENDER CANNOT PRODUCE CHILDREN. MARRIAGE WAS CREATED FOR THE PURPOSE OF CREATING FAMILY AND RAISING CHILDREN. -Again, Prop 8 has NOTHING to do with family or children. It does not mandate who can or cannot adopt of raise children. Anyone has the right to raise or have children regardless if they are married of not. California's Original definition of marriage is: "marriage is a personal relation arising out of a civil contract to which the consent of the parties capable of making the contract is necessary" Nowhere does it mention marriage as being the reason to raise a family or have children, NOR does it even say marriage HAS to be between a Man & a women. this point is irrelevant. "GAY MARRIAGE SHOULD BE ILLEGAL BECAUSE TWO PEOPLE OF THE SAME GENDER CANNOT RAISE A CHILD, CHILDREN DO BEST WHEN RAISED BY A MOM & A DAD" -Again, prop 8 does NOT mandate who can or cannot raise children, so even if prop 8 does pass, anyone, including same sex couples, will still be allowed to raise children. Many Children raised without either a Mom or dad, including Same Sex couples and even single parents, grow up just fine, and many children who were raised by both a mother and father were abused by there parents and not every person raised by a Mom and Dad have a good relationship with them so this theory is false. Besides all this, Prop 8 has NOTHING to do with children, it's only about marriage and civil rights, so this point is also irrelevant. "LEGALIZING GAY MARRIAGE WILL VIOLATE MY FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND FREEDOM OF SPEECH FOR CHURCHES WILL BE FORCE TO GO AGAINST THEIR BELIEFS AND MARRY SAME SEX COUPLES & COULD BE SUED IF THEY SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY" - No it wont. Prop 8 has NOTHING to do with religion or Freedom of Speech. 'No on Prop 8" will not force religions to believe anything or do anything which goes against there religion, because that is why FREEDOM OF RELIGION exists. Freedom of speech will not be violated, because that is why it exist, to protect people, so churches can teach or say anything they want and not be sued because FREEDOM of RELIGION and FREEDOM of SPEECH protects them. Remember again, Same Sex Marriage has been legal in California since June of 2008, and NO CHURCHES have been sued for there beliefs. People do not need to go to churches to get married, that is what city hall is for. "WE NEED TO PROTECT THE SANCTITY OF MARRIAGE FROM BEING DESTROYED" - If anything is destroying marriage, it is divorce. The sanctity of marriage was already destroyed when divorces shot up over 50%. And in Fact, divorce rates are the lowest in Massachusetts, where same sex marriage is legal, and divorce rates are the lowest in the world in the six countries where same sex marriages are legal. So if you REALLY want to protect marriage, you need to be fighting to ban divorce, not gay marriage. And what about Britney Spears' 55 Hour Las Vegas Marriage which she had annulled? Didn't that hurt the "sanctity" of marriage? or how about reality shows like FOX's "WHO WANTS TO MARRY A MULTI-MILLIONAIRE?" where 50 women completed to marry a total stranger who they never met and were not in love with. Didn't that hurt the "sanctity" or marriage? How come NOBODY is at an up-roar or protesting or fighting those things, many are trying to fight gay marriage? "GAY MARRIAGE WILL BE IMPOSING GAY LIFESTYLES ON PEOPLE" - Does heterosexual marriage necessarily impose heterosexual lifestyles on anyone? NO! Legalizing same sex marriage WILL NOT impose anyone's lifestyles on anyone, nor will it force anyone to be gay, of follow any lifestyle they do not want to. "PROP 8 WILL NOT TAKE AWAY RIGHTS OF GAY PEOPLE, DOMESTIC PARTNERSHIPS ARE THE SAME AS GAY MARRIAGE" -No they are not. due to the federal defense of marriage act or DOMA, Domestic Partnerships DO NOT have the 1,138 rights which married couples do. Among these include the fact that other states do not have to recognize a same sex couples domestic partnership if they move to another state. Also, Many insurance companies offer benefits to married couples but do not have to offer the same to domestic partnerships. And telling someone that they cannot be married, and have to settle for a domestic partnership instead, do to there sexual orientation, is the same as telling them yet cannot sit at the front of a public bus, but must settle for the back, do to there skin color. It is a violation of civil rights. So there is really no valid reason to vote yes on Prop 8, yet EVERY valid reason to vote NO ON PROP 8.
Originally Posted By Mr X Nice job, Butters. And by the way, all of us with a decent sense of right and wrong already KNEW there was no valid reason to vote "yes". But you did a good job pointing out the details. <--pats Butters affectionately on head.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***"WE NEED TO PROTECT THE SANCTITY OF MARRIAGE FROM BEING DESTROYED" - If anything is destroying marriage, it is divorce. The sanctity of marriage was already destroyed when divorces shot up over 50%.*** Way to tell it like it is, kid! You are absolutely right, and just try and get a straight answer out of anyone who disagrees...cause you won't. There is no "sanctity" to marriage, unless of course you WANT there to be (gay OR straight) in which case it is up to the married couple in question to MAKE it a sacred thing. Just the fact that you stamp "married" on a piece of paper has no sanctity at all.
Originally Posted By FaMulan All valid points that will fall on the deaf ears of those who obey their church without question. Those who do question religion and despise discimination realize that allowing everyone in a fully committed relationship to be called a marriage will not cause them any harm.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***All valid points that will fall on the deaf ears of those who obey their church without question.*** Who does THAT?? Are they idiots, or something?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***allowing everyone in a fully committed relationship to be called a marriage will not cause them any harm*** That ridiculous "cause them harm" argument is, to put it bluntly, evil. Think about all the harm that society has inflicted upon homosexuals. JUST think about if, for a second. That's all.
Originally Posted By Mr F "There is no "sanctity" to marriage, unless of course you WANT there to be (gay OR straight) in which case it is up to the married couple in question to MAKE it a sacred thing." EXACTLY! I would have never thought of that, well said! BRAVO!
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster In all fairness to Mormonism, there are quite a few members of the church who oppose the church's position on Proposition 8. Check out: <a href="http://www.mormonsformarriage.com" target="_blank">http://www.mormonsformarriage.com</a> This website made me feel a little better about Mormons. I guess they don't ALL blindly follow their leaders. Too many of them still do, however.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 Mr F, THANK YOU VERY MUCH for taking the time to do such a thorough, rational, point-by-point analysis the benefit and criticisms of Prop 8. Very nicely done. Whenever someone puts out an argument, there are always three camps of people who receive the message: those who are already "for"; those who are "against" and cannot be swayed; and those who are open to reason. Lots of people who are open to reason read LP's WE topics -- most of whom don't ever post. Thanks again for your thoughtful and well-articulated post.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 I'd also like to add... The INTENT of individuals who support Prop 8 may not be hateful, but the EFFECT of their support is to promote repression, discrimination, and hate. Gay people don't choose to be gay. It's just who they are. Homosexuality is, among many other biological differences between people, a "normal variation," such as being left-handed, having attached earlobes, having an extra sesmoid bone. (You'll never know if you're one 'til you have that area x-rayed.) There's no legitimate reason to try to relegate gay people to second-class citizenship. Those who fight to curtail the rights of gay people may be sincere, but they're mis-guided.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney Well, I just heard about this a week ago and will proudly be voting NO on this....if I'm forced to marry one day, it shouldnt be right gays and lesbians can get out of it ;D. But, I'm still waiting for my absentee ballot to arrive here in Australia and getting worried now . At first, I only cared about the federal election, but now there are two things I really want to vote for and this is actually more important to vote on since I already know where my vote for President is heading . But yeah, it just doesnt seem right does it? It just seems more hateful and discriminatory instead of holding 'traditional values' of marriage up. Thats a joke lol, besides the high divorce rate, there is massive infedelity, lying, domestic abuse and financial upheavel that goes on in a common marriage today. I still find it odd that people make it out to be some enlightened act when the average marriage usually ends in divorce in 5 years time. Focus on making it something noble again before telling others who should and shouldnt partake in it. I mean its California, how many times has Pamela Lee been married in that state lol. Anyway, IF I get the chance to vote, I will vote NO and know my family will definitely do the same.
Originally Posted By Mr X Dude, at this point you'd better fedex that ballot back if you want it to get counted!
Originally Posted By WorldDisney Yeah, I will figure it out this week. I registered weeks ago now, but havent heard anything. Its a little frustrating, but I can call the office directly in L.A. I got all the info from the website, so if I get nothing by Tuesday, will just call I guess.
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains Okay so here is the answer from the Superident of California Schools. <a href="http://www.noonprop8.com:8000/schoolsad" target="_blank">http://www.noonprop8.com:8000/schoolsad</a> Like I said California Standards do not include teaching about marriage!!
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains I think the comercials for the yes people should be pulled when they make it appear like the speaker is a teacher...sitting on a school desk!! Considering the California Association of Teachers is backing the No on 8 side...
Originally Posted By mele If they pulled all of the ads that were misleading, they'd have to pull them ALL. LOL
