Originally Posted By skinnerbox I honestly don't care whether or not she actually committed suicide. I honestly don't care whether or not the cop ends up permanently unemployed as he should be for being such a racist power hungry d-bag. All I care about is the fact that we're still a severely racist nation. And all minorities, i.e., folks who aren't Straight White Christian Males, need to realize that until the institutional racism is finally dealt the death blow... sh*t like this will continue to happen. Guaranteed. And because it will continue to happen, you had better best believe that if you don't kiss ass and lick boots and be unbelievably polite and submissive, you will die at the hands of law enforcement. Sandra Bland would be alive today if she had simply done what the cop requested of her -- which he didn't have the authority to request -- and put out her effn cigarette!! So, go ahead, minorities, and take that stand. Fight back!! Stand up for your rights!! Talk back and defy the cops who abuse their authority! And just like Sandra Bland, you will find yourself between a rock and a hard place, and pay the ultimate price!! The choice is yours. Talk back and find yourself dead. Or kiss ass and walk/drive away. The choice is up to you.
Originally Posted By ecdc No doubt most people will shrug and say she should've listened to the cop, because apparently in this country (where cops have shot over 500 people this year) disobeying a cop is a death sentence. But along the way there were numerous failures. She shouldn't have been pulled over. She shouldn't have been ordered out of the car or screamed at. She shouldn't have been in jail that long, thanks to a bail system that ought to have been declared unconstitutional long ago. And she should've been out on suicide watch based on multiple statements she made. What the hell kind of a free country just shrugs and says "Do whatever cops say or you might end up dead?" A tax increase is tyranny but being forcibly stopped, searched, and detained at any time is cool?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip OF COURSE there were many failures. OF COURSE things should be different. But I agree (I think if I am reading her post right) with skinnerbox. In the final analysis, do you want to be RIGHT or do you want to be ALIVE?? Let the lawyers fight the issues out in court. On the street, treat cops as you would treat any other thug. Do whatever it takes to come out alive.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Do whatever it takes to come out alive.<< Sure, but again, that blames the victim. Yeah, at the microlevel, we should take steps to protect ourselves. But let's not pretend like that solves the underlying problem. I've probably used this example before: I lock my doors at night to reduce the odds of being a victim of crime. But I'm under no delusion that locking my door *solves* crime. Just like black Americans watch their backs and work hard to not be victims, they aren't under some kind of delusion that being twice as good solves racism. There are fundamental, underlying issues here that we as a society need to address. And telling people to shut up and be good so they don't get killed by cops only reinforces the unjust system we currently have. Speak out against it, don't blame the victim.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip NO. Not blaming the victim. Just saying the streets are not the proper place to make your point. Telling society to address underlying issues is one thing. To tell Black people that they should stand up for their rights when confronted by a cop results in dead Black people. Is that what you want?
Originally Posted By trekkeruss I got pulled over a couple of months ago. My tags were expired. I had no idea; apparently in my state they no longer send out renewal reminders in the mail, and I was out of state when it expired. Anyway, I got a ticket. the officer explained I could just pay a fine, or go to court and show that I got the tags up to date. I went to court, and when my name was called, I showed the registration to the officer and was sent on my way. I guess I am one of "those people" who thinks she fought the wrong battle at the wrong time. Also, her death ... if a suicide ... is a completely separate issue
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Just saying the streets are not the proper place to make your point*** Except that, if the cops are in the wrong, they absolutely SHOULD be a safe place to make your point. In a truly free country, at least, that would be the case. In a police state, not so much. I don't buy into the "that's just the way it is" mentality. Too many people think that way, enabling the villainy to persist rather than fighting to stop it by speaking out against this police state in one clear, angry, united voice. Unfortunately for these United States, "united" is about as far from the truth as can be these days. So the problem will continue to worsen. Frankly, I'm not even comfortable VACATIONING there anymore...there are so many safer, saner options. If I didn't have family to see, I doubt I'd ever take the chance.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 Of course she shouldn't be dead. I want that out of the way. But when did it become ok to talk back to any authority figure. Cops, teachers etc. I never would have thought to do that .
Originally Posted By Mr X ***But when did it become ok to talk back to any authority figure*** When freedom of speech happened. Maybe you missed the memo. And spare us the "you can't do it in class" bullshit, because you and I both know it's a load of crap...we're talking about free adults here, not kids in a classroom. You don't have the right to attack a cop, but you most CERTAINLY have the right to say whatever you want (threats aside) without fear of death. Just as you have the right NOT to speak (as much as the cops try to trick us into thinking we don't really have that right). Freedom of speech is a relatively new, revolutionary idea, which INCLUDES the right to, you know, actually SPEAK. Yes, even in the event of a cop stop. Hearing replies like this makes me weep for humanity.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***But when did it become ok to talk back to any authority figure*** When freedom of speech happened. Maybe you missed the memo. And spare us the "you can't do it in class" bullshit, because you and I both know it's a load of crap...we're talking about free adults here, not kids in a classroom. You don't have the right to attack a cop, but you most CERTAINLY have the right to say whatever you want (threats aside) without fear of death. Just as you have the right NOT to speak (as much as the cops try to trick us into thinking we don't really have that right). Freedom of speech is a relatively new, revolutionary idea, which INCLUDES the right to, you know, actually SPEAK. Yes, even in the event of a cop stop. Hearing replies like this makes me weep for humanity.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***But when did it become ok to talk back to any authority figure*** Also, see "peaceful protest". People have been "talking back" to authority figures about as long as they've had the actual right to. And it always takes guts, and it should never result in death (or even the threat of death). I don't give a crap if it's the freaking Queen of England I'm insulting (or the Pope, or whatever other "important" person I dare not insult...LEAST of all a street cop with a chip on his shoulder). DAR, I think you're thinking about how it was when we were kids, and I get it (I was scared of cops then too, AND teachers). But now, at age 44, I'm pretty much over that. I'm not afraid of anyone, and I don't think I should be, and if I've broken the law I expect them to arrest me but I do *not* expect to be harassed or persecuted no matter what. But then again I'm a regular white guy. Like you. We probably haven't experienced the worst of it.
Originally Posted By ecdc Again, we keep talking about these incidents as if they take place in a vacuum. When did it become ok to talk back to an authority figure? Maybe when black Americans were disproportionately targeted by police? The dice are loaded, the game is rigged. It's why Eric Garner's second-to-last words were, "This ends today." Yep, it sure did.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 There's a difference between having a discussion and talking back. I have no doubt that a majority of cops do talk down to black citizens. But this is exactly what they want, it gives them a reason to use excessive force.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 It doesn't give them a GOOD reason to use excessive force. And with more and more of these incidents happening on video - and more and more white Americans thinking "Hm... maybe what black people have been talking about for decades really DOES happen..." (Gee, ya' think?) - there's some hope for real systemic change. This cop was clearly on a power-trip and escalated where he should have de-escalated. That's on HIM. That's what he's supposed to be trained to do. That's what a good cop DOES do. If enough cops lose their jobs over incidents like this, and understand that what they do could be videoed, either by a bystander or by their own dashcams, we might actually see systemic change. But we have to continue to push for it, and not blame the victims.
Originally Posted By ecdc Exactly right, how did we end up with the current situation, where cops have maximum power and minimum responsibility?
Originally Posted By ecdc <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/do-you-know-why-im-pulling-you-over-being-wildly-a-50916">http://www.theonion.com/blogpo...-a-50916</a>
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Exactly right, how did we end up with the current situation, where cops have maximum power and minimum responsibility?>> It has always been that way. In fact cops currently have far more regulations and restrictions in place than they used to. The problem is those regulations and restrictions are frequently ignored.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>In fact cops currently have far more regulations and restrictions in place than they used to.<< I'm not sure what you're referring to, but based on what I've read, that is simply not only false, it's the opposite of what's happened. The war on drugs is the chief offender here, giving birth to dozens of exceptions that eat away at our civil liberties. Officers have wide latitude to search and arrest, and it is common to hear them tell people "Stop resisting," because "resist" is the magic word that's their get out of jail free card. A lot of people, including reporters who have documented it happening to them, talk about their fear when they are doing *exactly* what the cop asks and they hear those words, "Stop resisting." Yeah, technically there are rules in place to protect us from overreach, but there are so many exceptions to those rules that have cropped up over the years as to make those rules meaningless. We have an expansion of probable cause and reasonable suspicion, and there is such a wide latitude for defining when people are a danger that cops can shoot unarmed fleeing suspects in the back and get away with it.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I'm not sure what you're referring to, but based on what I've read, that is simply not only false, it's the opposite of what's happened. The war on drugs is the chief offender here, giving birth to dozens of exceptions that eat away at our civil liberties.>> You must be quite young. Until a court ruling in 1985 (Tennessee v. Garner) it was perfectly legal for police to shoot at a fleeing suspect ONLY because they were fleeing. There was no requirement that they had to pose a deadly threat to the police or the public.
