Originally Posted By gadzuux <a href="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/06/05/MNGVUJ8GPK1.DTL" target="_blank">http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/arti cle.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/06/05/MNGVUJ8GPK1.DTL</a> ANOTHER QUESTIONED KILLING Iraqis dispute Marines' version that lame civilian was armed and digging bomb hole Ellen Knickmeyer, Washington Post Monday, June 5, 2006 Excerpts - Baghdad -- All parties to the case of Hashim Ibrahim Awad al-Zobaie agree that he was shot dead by Marines of the 3rd Battalion, 5th Regiment on April 26 in the small central Iraqi village of Hamdaniya. But there are differing accounts of his death, and they are at the heart of another investigation into the conduct of American forces in Iraq. Members of the Marine foot patrol under investigation in the case said they came upon al-Zobaie digging a hole for a bomb near his home. The Marines said they killed al-Zobaie in a gunbattle and that they found an AK-47 assault rifle and a shovel by his side. According to accounts given by neighbors and members of al-Zobaie's family, and apparently supported by photographs, the Marines went to al-Zobaie's home, took the 52-year-old Iraqi with one damaged leg outside and shot him four times in the face. The assault rifle and shovel next to his body had been planted by the Marines, who had borrowed them from a villager, family and residents said. The family of al-Zobaie alleged this weekend that a small group of U.S. servicemen came to them last week and offered the family money to support the Marines' version of the killing. Al-Zobaie's family said Saturday the victim's last hours began about 2 a.m. on April 26, when members of a U.S. Marine foot patrol banged at the door of his one-story, walled compound. The Marines grabbed him by his robe as soon as he came to the door, pulling him from the house, said his son, Nasir, 26. "Less than an hour later, we heard shooting," Nasir said. At daylight, the family found a wide hole in the dirt road about 500 yards from their home, wet with bloodstains and littered with discarded plastic gloves. Al-Zobaie's neighbor, Farhan Ahmed Hussein, said the Marines had stopped at his house first that night, before going to al-Zobaie's. Hussein said the Marines took his shovel and AK-47. The Post obtained a copy of an apparent statement by the Marines on the killing, written in English and given to Iraqi authorities at Hamdaniya. The Post also obtained a copy of a statement in Arabic given to Iraqi authorities and signed "The Marines" and a leaflet handed out in the area immediately after the killing that described al-Zobaie as an insurgent who had been shot after he fired on the foot patrol. After the U.S. military investigating team visited Hamdaniya, residents said Saturday, American forces in the area began taking back the leaflets from residents and destroying them. The Post also obtained photographs of a dead man. What appeared to be at least four bullet holes could be seen in the photo -- two in one cheek, one in the chin and one in the lip. The English-language statement on the killing, written on notebook paper, gave this account: "On 60425 at aprox 0300 we spotted a man digging on the side of the road from our ambush site. I made the call and engaged. He was pronounced dead at the scene with only a shovel and AK-47." Family members insist al-Zobaie was not an insurgent and say they do not know why he was killed. A group of American troops arrived at the house the next day, and talked to Ibrahim, 60. One man identified himself as a sergeant, Ibrahim said. According to Ibrahim, the American said, "We are ready to compensate you with the money you want, on one condition, which is when the investigation committee comes back, you tell them that your brother worked with the insurgents, and had connections with the insurgents, and that he used to go out at night to places you don't know." Ibrahim said he refused. The family's account could not be independently confirmed.
Originally Posted By gadzuux Here's the problem - we have no reason to believe the version being supplied by the marines. We already know that they're capable of this kind of criminal act, and that we can't believe anything they say - especially the "first thing" they say after an incident such as this. How many of us have heard the rhetoric following haditha that "99% of our military are upholding the finest traditions ... yada yada". Well even if that's true, that means we've got about 1500 homicidal US military running loose in iraq - a country that we're not at war with.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh We have more of a reason to believe the Marines than the family of the man who was shot. What motive do the Marines have to shoot an innocent man? None. What motive does the family have to lie about what happened? Many.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper When did it become hip to criticize our armed services? Can we let the investigation proceed before we hang em?
Originally Posted By ADMIN <font color="#FF0000">Message removed by an administrator. <a href="MsgBoard-Rules.asp" target="_blank">Click here</a> for the LaughingPlace.com Community Standards.</font>
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> What motive do the Marines have to shoot an innocent man? None. << And yet it appears to be happening on a regular basis. >> What motive does the family have to lie about what happened? Many. << Okay, let's assume that the marine's version of the story is correct - that this fiftysomething man with a gimp leg is actually out digging holes in the street at 3am with an AK47, presumeably to plant an IED. He's an 'insurgent' - a terrorist. So where's the IED? They caught him in the act, yet there's no evidence. Four bullet holes to the face - all within a few inches diameter, this doesn't sound like a pitched gunbattle, it sounds like an execution. Why are the marines issuing statements and then immediately retracting them - going so far as to actually fan out within the area and recollect the leaflets? Why are the marines offering to "compensate" the family of an insurgent terrorist? >> Why are they instructing the family on what to say to the investigators who will come later? >> For the left who don't support the military, who think the military lie to us, this is just their honest view. << We KNOW that the military lies to us - they get caught in them all the time. And they're always self-serving and covering up their own misdeeds. And that's the crux of the problem - they don't have any credibility left - even if they are correct in any given statement, their past record of abuses and lies and cover-ups negates any kind of credibility.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Well Gadzuux, how is that Military ban coming along in SF? SAn Ramone was very nice by the way. Went to a place in Danville called FAZ for dinner. Also very nice.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Damn marines...let's take them out back and beat them. They are no-good losers who are just screwing up an easy assignment.
Originally Posted By CrouchingTigger ^^^ Yeah. All those guys had to do was pick out a random civilian who was minding his own business and execute him, but they left all this evidence laying around and reliable witnesses alive. Such incompetence.
Originally Posted By gadzuux The evidence is mounting that they're committing atrocities. Is that okay with you? And that these abuses are systemic. And how much responsibility is attributable to the military's leadership? It's rumsfeld's incompetence that has allowed this insurgency to become as potent as it is. It was bush and cheney who waived away any and all counsel and advice about this war, preferring to believe their own rhetoric about being greeted as liberators. If the investigation shows that this man was killed without any cause, the individuals directly responsible will be held to account. But the individuals who are indirectly responsible won't. And all of that is after the fact anyhow. The larger point is that it's already after the fact. We do not have the "hearts and minds" of the iraqis, and we're certainly not improving our image over time. But hey - all you iraq war supporters, keep on discounting all the unpleasant facts and realities, and instead focus on the happy talk that the GOP spin machine is only too happy to provide.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <And yet it appears to be happening on a regular basis.> Only if you believe everything you see on Al Jazeera. <Why are the marines issuing statements and then immediately retracting them - going so far as to actually fan out within the area and recollect the leaflets? Why are the marines offering to "compensate" the family of an insurgent terrorist?> I have my doubts that this is true.
Originally Posted By CrouchingTigger >> The evidence is mounting that they're committing atrocities. << I would reword that to "There is evidence that atrocities have been committed." Only slightly different, but less of a blanket statement. _Some_ soldiers have gotten out of control, and those have typically been in combat situations when the adrenaline is pumping and stress is high. But I'd rather not just paint all the soldiers with "they're committing atrocities". We haven't heard the whole story on this, and I'd rather wait until more of the facts are known until I call it anything except what the military is calling it. I have some faith that the military _wants_ to do the right thing, even if they sometimes have trouble actually doing it.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Gadzuux, jonvn, this ones for you where ever you are. Democrats, Media Begin Final Drive to Secure Defeat in Iraq By: Robert A. Hahn · Section: News Democrats — both elected officials and 'journalists' — have begun what they hope will be the final "Drive to Defeat" in the Iraq War. Seeking to reprise their victorious defeat in Vietnam — which resulted in nearly 5 million deaths in Vietnam and Cambodia following the U.S. withdrawal — the self-styled "reality patriots" in the far-left wing of the Democratic Party are retracing the steps of discredited Senator John "F." Kerry, whose fabricated charges of atrocities supposedly committed by U.S. troops in Vietnam constituted the bulk of his sworn testimony before the U.S. Senate in 1971. Seizing on what may well be a case of criminal activity by U.S. troops (no trial has been held, no one has yet been charged), the Reality Patriots have launched a crescendo of "Atrocity!™" charges in the U.S. media, naming one Iraqi city after another as the site of an Atrocity!™ in which U.S. troops have supposedly gone berserk, wantonly killing Iraqi civilians. To assemble these incidents, reality patriots eagerly parrot virtually any accusation made by enemy forces or their sympathizers. In their reality, and with their patriotism, enemy combatants are credible sources and U.S. military officials are liars. By now Americans should be used to this. Since the 1970's, Democrats — both elected officials and 'journalists' — have been loudly opposed to any use of military force during Republican administrations. They have been more than willing to lie outrageously to discredit the country's elected leadership and the military. They have repeatedly disclosed the country's military secrets in the press. And they have lent voice and credibility to enemy spokesmen... all with the goal of securing America's defeat. It is difficult to know why they do this. Some of it is undoubtedly simple political partisanship — a desire to see a Republican president discredited, even at the cost of military defeat and even at the cost of millions of lives in the countries abandoned following the Democratic "victory." John Kerry, who disingenuously predicted "two or three thousand" deaths in the event of American withdrawal from Vietnam, has yet to atone for, or even acknowledge, the millions actually killed by the Communist dictators he favored. Some of this behavior may stem from a deep-seated self-loathing — a belief that the United States is fundamentally evil and corrupt, and that anything it does should be stopped. Right behind that is the idea that defeat would be "good for the country." Unwilling to accept policies adopted by elected leaders who are not their own, these "patriots" set out almost immediately to undermine those policies, even at the cost of American lives. Were this merely the activity of identifiable partisans on the far-left wing, this would arguably be a healthy part of the debate that ought to go on in any self-governing country. However, in the United States, there exists a substantial cadre of far-left partisans who cloak their advocacy as "journalism." Such people are sufficiently numerous in the companies that provide the public's news that they severely restrict the ability of voters to receive information about military affairs that has not been processed and filtered by far-left partisans wearing reporter masks. This condition is extremely dangerous in a self-governing country, for the public cannot make informed decisions if it is not so much informed as manipulated by political partisans. The process of correcting the political imbalance in the institutions of mass communication has begun, but it is not so far along that the public could not today be stampeded into adopting far-left policies by the partisans who still control much of what the public is told about events. Those who oppose the far left bear a special burden in these times, to make sure that they are accurately informed about these events, and that they share this knowledge with friends, family, and co-workers who are still dependent on "news" provided by "reality patriots" who seek America's defeat.
Originally Posted By gadzuux Ah. So the "news" is to blame for the "Atrocity!™ It's just like you said, beau. And if the iraq war comes to an ignoble end, it'll be the democrats fault. >> reality patriots eagerly parrot virtually any accusation made by enemy forces or their sympathizers. << Such as "Time" magazine? The neo-cons better be careful when throwing around claims of 'no credibility' when it comes to the iraq war. There still isn't any WMD, no nuclear program, no links to 9/11, no links to al qaeda - remember those claims? We committed our nation to war on those claims. >> Since the 1970's, Democrats have been loudly opposed to any use of military force during Republican administrations. << And justifiably so, as it turns out. >> Some of it is undoubtedly simple political partisanship — a desire to see a Republican president discredited << He's already done a splendid job of that, all on his own. >> a belief that the United States is fundamentally evil and corrupt, and that anything it does should be stopped. << No, it's the GOP that's fundamentally evil and corrupt. Big difference, but one that's lost on the author of this tome. >> However, in the United States, there exists a substantial cadre of far-left partisans who cloak their advocacy as "journalism." << Ah. And pray tell what "journal" does this Mr Hahn write for? And why is he any better?
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <There still isn't any WMD, no nuclear program, no links to 9/11, no links to al qaeda - remember those claims?> There were links to al queda.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 When did it become hip to criticize our armed services? Can we let the investigation proceed before we hang em?<< Its always been hip for gadzuuk to criticize our armed services, just lately he has had more "ammo" Next time a priest molests an alter boy I will blame the entire homesexual community and we will see how far that goes as a thread. Double standards....... Don't blame the entire community for a few idiots.
Originally Posted By Shooba >>Don't blame the entire community for a few idiots<< Yeah, it's a shame this sort of stuff happens but I haven't seen any evidence of widespread cover-ups or bad behaviour from the majority of the military. I do think the brunt of the criticism here is for the military higher-ups, however. When they try and brush stuff under the rug, it makes you wonder how much more stuff we don't hear about.
Originally Posted By Shooba >>Don't blame the entire community for a few idiots<< Hey, this could be a mantra for WE! Don't blame all conservativs, all liberals, all republicans, all democrats, all muslims, all christians, etc for the misdeeds or misguided views of a small minority.
Originally Posted By gadzuux I'll be the first to sling mud at abusive priests, but it's the entire catholic church that we're tarring, not the gay community. And yes, in all seriousness, I agree with william, and I do understand that there are vast numbers of marines and others in iraq that are doing their level best amid trying circumstances. BUT! I don't have any trust at all within the leadership of the US military to do more than a cursory job of resolving these issues, and they're piling up. Some manner of personal responsibility is called for from the individuals involved, and that will likely be imposed upon them. At this point it's unreasonable to expect any accountability from the leadership of the military - the pentagon and the joint chiefs. They're only too happy to point to these transgressors and say that it's all their fault without any acknowlegement of their own culpability. Meanwhile they run these soldiers as if they're expendable drones and then they're so surprised when incidents like this occur - often on their third or even fourth tour or duty. So yeah - there's more "ammo" because the stories of these misdeeds are increasing. Is that because the incidents themselves are increasing, or that the so-called "liberal media" is finally getting the huevos to stand up to this administration and report on what's actually going on in iraq?
Originally Posted By tiggertoo I feel these reports are only going to multiply and that we’re are going to have plethora of insurgents...pardon me..."civilians" coming out left and right blaming our military for every person they know has been killed in this war (combatant or not). It wouldn’t take a genius to figure out the potential harm it can do the US efforts. The fact that these events seem to all be coming out at the same time has me even more suspicious that these claim of US brutality is simply the next strategy in the insurgent play to defeat the US. I’m not saying this IS the case, but my skept-o-meter is on full alert. Even if events have some validity, it isn’t the military that is the problem, it is the terrorist form of combat they are having to deal with. The enemy insurgent ARE civilians so to speak. I recall a story relayed to me through a security forces friend of mine of a 10 year old kid who shot and wounded a GI while they were handing out food. Who is the civilian; who is the insurgent? The lines have become so blurred that the military is essentially “damned if they do; damned if they don’t.†Sure, we can sit at our PCs thousands of miles away and criticize our armed forces, but we really don’t know diddly squat about what happened. These events should be investigated, but until then, I sure as heck am not going to take the word of Iraqi…ummm…“civilians†over that of our military personnel.
