Originally Posted By ecdc My apologies if this seems a very self-involved post. As we've discussed the abortion issue and Sarah Palin in a few different threads, I've mentioned some of the facts of what a fetus or an embryo is in its development as a way of contrasting it with a cute newborn or precocious toddler. I know it's a sensitive topic, so if I've offended anyone, my apologies. And lest anyone think I'm indifferent to life, children, etc., here's my story. My son Matthew was born 8 weeks premature. At first they though he'd be just fine by spending a few days extra in the hospital, and he was a bit bigger for how far along he was. But on the second night he went into respiratory distress and was Life Flighted to another hospital with a newborn ICU. Unless you've been through it, you can't possibly fathom the drowning panic that rises uncontrollably in your chest in the moments when you don't know if your child will live or die. He spent a month in the NICU with an IV in his head and living in an incubator. Now he's 5 and his favorite ride at Disneyland is Pirates. He could play with his Star Wars figures for hours on end if we didn't stop him. (He insists on buying them with his birthday money at the Star Trader in Tomorrowland. Good luck explaining theme park mark-ups to a 5 year old.) To this day, I cannot look at pictures of him taken in the ICU without fighting back tears. Now my wife is a photographer and she feels incredibly lucky that our son pulled through. So, as a way to give thanks, she volunteers for a group called Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep. She takes pictures of stillborn and recently deceased newborns for parents who request it. She's gotten calls at 2AM to dash off to a hospital to photograph yet another dead baby. It's emotionally draining, but somehow she does it. Just two days ago, she was with a family when their two month old daughter was taken off of life support. They had asked that the moment be photographed, so she shared that incredibly intimate time with them even though they'd never met before. Emily has photographed a fetus as young as 20 weeks, and newborns that were full-term but stopped moving just a day or two before their due date when the cord wrapped around their neck. She's been led by nursing staff to a bio-hazard room where she removes a fetus from a freezer to pose it for pictures, the tiny body so small the hospital wrist-band is slipped around its waist like a loose belt. Conversely she's sat in well-furnished birthing rooms with entire families as they pass around a deceased baby that looks like it just might be sleeping. I share this information for two reasons. First, what life is, when it begins, etc., is messy. It isn't black and white. My wife gets calls at 2AM because the body deteriorates quickly. In some cases, she's had to do some pretty remarkable Photoshopping. Let me tell you, there's nothing more real and "in your face" than the reality of a decaying newborn. That is the cold, hard facts of what happens when you die. It's not pretty or pleasant, and she deals with it frequently to try and make sure a family in pain doesn't have to. She takes the pictures and makes them look good so they have something better to remember. This is why I get frustrated at pro-life attempts to portray all fetuses as toddlers bouncing on daddy's knee. Mind, I'm not trying to make excuses for abortion; I'm just pointing out that it isn't always that simple. And some people in that moment don't want to think of it as "a baby." It's easier for it to be just an underdeveloped fetus. "It didn't even have eyes yet" one mother commented to my wife (and it didn't). Second, do not think that those of us that are pro-choice are somehow more callous or indifferent. My wife is pro-choice, but she sees parents in total agony over the loss of their child at least once a week. She cries with them and offers what little she can to comfort them. If you are pro-life, do not make the mistake of thinking those of us on the other side of the issue haven't thought it through or that we're somehow naive. I'm in a position where I think about newborns and children in mother's wombs frequently, and frankly, sometimes more than I care to. I see the before and after pictures; it's very difficult. I know what it's like to almost lose a child. My wife knows what it's like. We love our children just as much as you and we'd be just as devastated to lose one just as much as any parent. I know it's a tough issue. I know why someone would choose to be pro-life. But it's not a black and white issue. Just my (lengthy) two cents.
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn Thanks for sharing that story. Copying and forwarding to my wife. My wife was adopted. She's now in her mid-thirties and researching for her birth mother. She has recently come to find out that her birth mother was a teenager with no job. But she is ever-so grateful to her birth mother and to God that she was delivered and adopted. She is, of course, so glad she wasn't aborted. I wouldn't have the precious son and daughter who I have today if she had been aborted. My brother and his wife lost their first baby on the day it was supposed to be born. The baby lost signs of life on the due date, and the mom knew she was to prepare to the delivery of a still-born. They had their pictures made by the same group. Thanks for everything your wife does. I'm Pro-choice - but only if God is the one to make the choice. I believe a child would scream if it could feel the abortion process. If you don't believe in God, then there's no reason to believe that life ever begins. You might as well "choose" to take it away anytime after birth much less before birth. I don't believe the process should be illegal, but I believe it should be stopped using the free decisions of free people inspired by the spirit of truth. It's time to simply do the right thing.
Originally Posted By RockyMtnMinnie >>>If you don't believe in God, then there's no reason to believe that life ever begins.<<< There is a difference between Spirituality and Christianity and there can be Spirituality without God. One can very much not believe in God and still appreciate the importance of life. And if there is no afterlife, this one shot we get is even that much more important. But it takes consciousness and self-awareness to recognize this, not God.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I believe a child would scream if it could feel the abortion process.*** Vegetables would probably scream too IF they could feel the harvesting process. The "IF" is the issue. As people have mentioned before, we're not talking about any conscious or aware being in the early stages. That's why the issue is so complex really..IS a near undeveloped embryo more important than the sanity of the mother in the case of a rape? Some say yes, many say no. It's no easy cut and dried answer to be found here (even Palin admits that if the mother is endangered they should kill the "baby"..how does THAT jive?). But, it's certainly complicated and I believe MRK has been trying to be sincere here so I'll not go beyond that, save for the fact that this is an INCREDIBLY difficult issue and I appreciate everyones' comments (particularly yours ECDC...heartfelt, heartwrenching at times, but in any case very much appreciated).
Originally Posted By wonderingalice Even as a non-mom who's never been pregnant, I'm deeply moved by your story, ecdc. And the strength exhibited by your wife is phenomenal... I couldn't do what she does. I'm also a pro-choice woman who would not choose (or have chosen) abortion for myself if faced with pregnancy. That's all... It's just my personal view. Short and bittersweet.
Originally Posted By dsnykid I agree with Alice, I do not think I personally could ever have an abortion, but I would never force my belief on any one else, and I would hope for the same respect from others. So I am pro-choice, although I hope it is a choice I am never faced with.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Wow, what a story ecdc. So glad your son pulled through, and what a woman you're married to, obviously.
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn [***I believe a child would scream if it could feel the abortion process.*** Vegetables would probably scream too IF they could feel the harvesting process. The "IF" is the issue.] Tru dat
Originally Posted By DAR Your wife ecdc must be pretty strong because there is no way I could do anything like that.
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Originally Posted By DAR But getting back to the topic. I've made it known that I'm pro life, though I do understand situations where the mother's life is in jeopardy it would be necessary to have an abortion. But other than that I would like to see a mother carry her baby to term and either keep it or give it up for adoption.
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Originally Posted By Mr X Good lord, what the heck could've been admined here? Some people have no couth, I guess.
