Originally Posted By RockyMtnMinnie Because, we are American's gosh darnnet, and the only right way is the American way! In seriousness, I would love to see every person in this country with health care, and the free market system simply will not do this. It would have to be government supplied, but I do have fears when I hear stories of how long it takes to get care in other countries that have government sponsered health care. If we can do it, and do it better, than I'm all for it.
Originally Posted By hopemax During the Presidential debates, there was a question about is health care a right or a privilege? That spawned huge debates on another board I read. One of the things I noticed is that the privilege people's arguments boiled down to concerns about cost. They understood that if we decided it was a right, the idea of millions of people going without proper care would be an abomination; a failure of our great society. Therefore, the government would have to step in. The costs associated with that reality are incomprehensible and a bit terrifying. So then there was some sort of mental gymnastics where since we can't afford it, it can't be a right. If it isn't a right, then it minimizes the guilt associated when faced with people that don't have it. Like you don't feel guilty that you can take a vacation or own an ipod while others can't.
Originally Posted By 8 ilovemickey 8 I am not very into politics but someone who is familar with the medical field. I don't think it is wrong, I think we are just really far away from finding a good, solid, money well spent way to do it. I watched the President's discussion on health care a month or so ago and I have to say I was pretty disappointed with what he had to say. In fact, he didn't seem to have any solution for anything. That said, I think it would at least be helpful to standerdized procedures and what someone can be charged for that procedure.
Originally Posted By DAR It comes down to cost you could cut out things we don't need but how long until it affects education, military, road repairs. It will eliminate private health carriers. While that maybe seen as a good, competition is good for the marketplace. Not to mention the number of jobs that could be lost. Remember it's not all corporate execs in these jobs.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I was watching a health care roundtable on MSNBC last night and there were a lot of great points made from all sides. One that I had not really thought about was in regards to the success stories of countries with socialized medicine. The gentleman stipulated that those successes occur in countries with controlled immigration whereas it is still very much a free-for-all here in the States. Many folks also making the argument that whenever rich folks in other countries want specialized services they board a plane and head to the Cleveland Clinc (or Mayo, etc) because they will get better care in the States. But, I also realize that health care costs are a significant portion of the national debt so I do think something needs to be done. It just isn't cut and dry and it does not surprise me that there is fear and uncertainty.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Competition is good but that does not mean that the competitors all have to be for-profit companies with a primary goal of increasing shareholder returns. There are tons of non-profit hospitals and insurance companies out there who are very competitive in trying to increase their market share. The difference is that the money that is earned above their expenses is reinvested into health care instead of being paid out in dividends and bonuses. There can still be plenty of competition without the for-profit insurance companies. We need to make sure that our healthcare dollars are being spent on healthcare instead of insurance company profits
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Many folks also making the argument that whenever rich folks in other countries want specialized services they board a plane and head to the Cleveland Clinc (or Mayo, etc) because they will get better care in the States.> Whenever? Not at all. This is more of a anti-reform talking point/anecdote than reality. Most developed countries have perfectly good care, and most rich Germans get treated in Germany, most rich French people get treated in France, etc. etc. There are a few places that specialize in particular things and, yes, if you have lots of money, you can travel to those places. But they're not just in the US. The husband of a woman I used to work with has a very rare sort of blood problem and he goes to Germany to get treated, because the research hospital there is recognized as the world leader in that particular disorder.
Originally Posted By DAR <<There can still be plenty of competition without the for-profit insurance companies. We need to make sure that our healthcare dollars are being spent on healthcare instead of insurance company profits >> That's fine but you also need to attract people to work for those companies by offering a reasonable wage.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy There is an easy explanation -- marketing and propaganda. The pharmaceutical and health insurance industries have spent billions of dollars to get their message out over many decades that social medicine is bad medicine. They drown out all other messages. It's the same reason people buy Nike tennis shoes. The shoes are sized poorly to fit most people. The shoes don't enhance performance in ways better than competing shoes. The cost of the shoe is miniscule in comparison to the cost of athlete endorsements that went into selling the shoe. Still, people buy Nike tennis shoes. That's the power of the marketing dollar at work.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 At the very least, there should be some kind of cost regulation on medication. The pharmaceutical companies charge way too much for medication. A friend of mine told me the other day that one of the things he takes costs $3,000 a bottle. I think it it was social medicine, or regulated in some way to keep costs affordable, that could be a huge help to a lot of people.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper When I was in Italy a couple of years ago I met hundreds of Rotarians...who admittedly were likely in the upper ranges of the pay scale. I asked many of them about health care the vast majority of them told me that if they faced a major surgery they would come to the US for the procedure. That includes one of northern Italy's foremost Cardiologists who I consider a good friend. I can't speak to Italian healthcare...but they certainly can.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy ^^ Italy is one of the more impoverished countries of Europe. Why use Italy as an example for anything?
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Impoverished? What part of Italy are you visiting? Milan is one of the major business and financial centers of the world. Italy has the seventh largest economy in the world. You know what else they do in Italy? They tax the hell out of the corporations. Hmm....sounds vaguely familiar.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy I've been all over Italy. North, south, central. One of the most unattractive European countries I've ever visited. I wouldn't set them as a benchmark for anything.
Originally Posted By ecdc All of the anecdotal stories about how "I've been to country X and their healthcare was..." are nice, but they aren't data. The data tells a different story. The U.S. trails Europe badly in life expectancy, infant mortality, obesity, heart disease, etc. We trail in every single measurable stat. This is according to the WHO's latest data, just released. I've mentioned before, my wife volunteers as a photographer for a non-profit group that provides bereavement photography to parents with stillborn children. Inevitably, these parents are poor, often minorities, and they don't have health insurance. Usually their delivery is their first trip to the hopsital or doctor. Welcome to America, where dead babies are preferable to higher taxes. But I guess these lazy people deserved it and we shouldn't have to pay for it, right?
Originally Posted By beamerdog I'd like the opportunity to buy health insurance. I cannot get a policy in my state and most states because of a medical condition. I'm willing to pay for the policy but the companies won't even discuss it. Let's fix that.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<One that I had not really thought about was in regards to the success stories of countries with socialized medicine. The gentleman stipulated that those successes occur in countries with controlled immigration whereas it is still very much a free-for-all here in the States.>> I believe that the late Milton Friedman once said that Open Borders and the Welfare state were incompatible.
