Originally Posted By skinnerbox (This was already mentioned by mawnck in the Walker thread. But I wanted to give this issue its own thread because of the legal chaos that will shortly ensue.) <a href="http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/10/wisconsin-legal-problems/" target="_blank">http://thinkprogress.org/2011/...roblems/</a> "Last night, Wisconsin GOP lawmakers called a surprise conference committee meeting and then rammed an anti-union bill through the state senate. Yet, by forcing the bill through without legally required public notice, the senators may have ensured that the bill will be declared void. Wisconsin law requires all government meetings to be conducted publicly and with advance notice except under very limited circumstances. According to a guide to Wisconsin’s open meetings law prepared by the state’s Republican attorney general: The provision in Wis. Stat. § 19.84(3) requires that every public notice of a meeting be given at least twenty-four hours in advance of the meeting, unless “for good cause” such notice is “impossible or impractical.” If “good cause” exists, the notice should be given as soon as possible and must be given at least two hours in advance of the meeting. … If there is any doubt whether “good cause” exists, the governmental body should provide the full twenty-four-hour notice. [...] Wis. Stat. § 19.97(3) provides that a court may void any action taken at a meeting held in violation of the open meetings law if the court finds that the interest in enforcing the law outweighs any interest in maintaining the validity of the action. Yet, when state Rep. Peter Barca (D) informed his colleagues of this legal requirement during tonight’s conference committee, the committee’s Republican majority ignored his protests and voted to approve the bill while Barca was still explaining why their actions were illegal. A few GOP-aligned outlets are now trying to claim that the law was not violated because the conference committee was announced two hours in advance. Yet there is no evidence whatsoever that it would have been “impossible or impractical” to give the full day’s notice required by law. In other words, Barca’s arguments are clearly consistent with the attorney general’s understanding of the law, and the most important open question is whether the courts will exercise their authority to “void any action taken at a meeting held in violation of the open meetings law” and invalidate this bill."
Originally Posted By hopemax DH was thinking that the plan is, that by doing this, it will force the missing Senators to return (I guess because the public would think it was a done deal, and so they might as well come back home). And once they return, then they can simply pass the original legislation.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox I believe the Republicans are stupid enough to think this will work. Try again, pea brains.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper If Republicans had fled the State to avoid a vote on something the Democrats wanted the criticism would be vast and loud. Anyone who says otherwise is in denial. I will reiterate that I'm sick of both sides.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Walker lied through his teeth during the election about what his actual agenda was for the state. His comments during his conversation with the fake David Koch is proof positive of what he really wants to accomplish. This is not political action by one party to help amend the state's woes. This is a political assassination of the Democrats in an effort to deprive them of significant campaign contributions from the unions. This is a political targeting of the opposing party, so that millions in campaign contributions from corporations to the GOP a la Citizens United go unmatched. The GOP does not care about democracy nor the health and well being of average citizens. The GOP works for the corporations and the top 2%. And those corporations and uber rich want to toast our democracy and control the government themselves, without business or environmental regulations, trade tariffs, corporate taxes, or estate taxes. They want to get richer while the rest of us FOAD. And Walker and the Wisconsin Republicans are working hard and breaking laws in order to help them achieve it. Spare me the "I'm sick of both sides" garbage. What the Dems are doing is self-defense. What the Republicans are doing is all-out war.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder I heard this on the radio this morning, and I wonder if a lawsuit wasn't just delaying the inevitable anyway. The GOP just finally ran out of patience and voted solely on the collective bargaining portion, as they don't need a quorom for that. Courts are loathe to get involved in legislative catfights, what with that whole checks and balances thing. If this was somehow set aside by the courts, the votes are there, so when the Dems eventually return, this passes again anyway. I would think the Dems would have better luck mounting sucessful recall efforts, or approach this from sort of malfeasance or misconduct angle.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper The Republicans were elected skinner. And, why can't I personally be sick of both sides?
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<I would think the Dems would have better luck mounting sucessful recall efforts, or approach this from sort of malfeasance or misconduct angle.>> Recall efforts are underway: <a href="http://mb.laughingplace.com/MsgBoard-T-118791-P-1.asp" target="_blank">http://mb.laughingplace.com/Ms...-P-1.asp</a> "A new poll shows that majorities support the recall of two of Wisconsin’s GOP senators. Three Republicans would need to be recalled in order to flip control of the chamber." <a href="http://www.recalltherepublican8.com/?page_id=37" target="_blank">http://www.recalltherepublican...ge_id=37</a> <a href="http://wisconsinrecall.net/blog" target="_blank">http://wisconsinrecall.net/blog</a>
Originally Posted By Tony C Post 4 there's some truth to that but really the Republicans and people like Fox News and Rush Limbaugh have created this culture.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox What would you have the Dems do? Give up and let the cheating liars dismantle the unions so the only significant political contributions going to the state will come from corporations to the Republicans? Would you have the Dems give up and let the Republicans sell off state properties piece by piece to the Koch brothers and other corporations who want to privatize most of it? Why would anyone in favor of worker's rights and the democratic process be "sick" of what the Dems are fighting for here? If you want to see the middle class and workers' rights survive in this country, you should be supportive of what the Dems are doing, and not be "sick" of it. And your argument about "the Republicans were elected" is bogus. Just because some politicians won their elections does not give them carte blanche to act like dictators. Which is precisely what Walker and his GOP flying monkeys in the state legislature are doing. When politicians lie to the voters about what they want to accomplish and where the stand regarding the future, then turn around and do the exact opposite after winning the election, is unethical. And acting unethically has consequences. That's what recalls are for. Unfortunately for the citizens of Wisconsin, Walker cannot be recalled before January. But many of his flying monkeys in the state Senate can and undoubtedly will be.
Originally Posted By Labuda Just a reminder that I love your brain and sense or right & wrong, skinner. Consider your brain kissed!
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Who said privatizing government (or some aspects of it) is bad? I work for a local government that privatizes nearly everything. While most communities are suffering massive budget deficits we are getting by fairly well. Why? Well, for one thing, we don't have millions of dollars of unfunded (or underfunded) pensions to deal with. It isn't popular to say...but Unions by and large have put their employees in the unfavorable position they are in today. When a bus driver is making over $100,000 a year something is wrong. When a person who cuts the grass is making over $60,000 a year, something is wrong. When an individual can retire from a job...twice...and claim two or more pensions plus receive free health care for life then something is wrong. I'm not in favor of the tactics of either side. But, something must change.
Originally Posted By Princessjenn5795 "And your argument about "the Republicans were elected" is bogus. Just because some politicians won their elections does not give them carte blanche to act like dictators. Which is precisely what Walker and his GOP flying monkeys in the state legislature are doing. When politicians lie to the voters about what they want to accomplish and where the stand regarding the future, then turn around and do the exact opposite after winning the election, is unethical. And acting unethically has consequences. That's what recalls are for. " Exactly, skinner. Also, these Republicans did not campaign on dismantling unions, taking money out of education to give corporations tax breaks, or making it harder for students and minorities to vote (take a look at the bill they have proposed to combat voter fraud, by which they mean people voting for democrats). Had they campaigned on what they are actually doing, they would never have been elected. Had Scott Walker said "I am going increase our deficit by giving a massive tax break to corporation while going after public sector union employees making very little money" he would have lost.
Originally Posted By andyll <<Who said privatizing government (or some aspects of it) is bad?>> 3 reasons: 1) Assume the job costs the same whether the government does it or private business does it... Private businesses have profits which have to come from somewhere. In most cases it comes out of workers wages. So privatizing government jobs transfers income from workers to stockholders. 2) Studies always seem to show privatizing saves money... before the job is privatized. In the end it always seems to cost more. 3) A businesses main goal is to maximize profits. These leads to businesses trying to limit services for the money spent. Governments main goal is to maximize services. Which model is best for the society paying for the services?
Originally Posted By Labuda No to be a Doubting Thomas, but: "When a bus driver is making over $100,000 a year something is wrong. When a person who cuts the grass is making over $60,000 a year, something is wrong." Please provide proof this is happening.
Originally Posted By Labuda Note: I'm talking actual salary here. If you add in the benefits I get, my salary would be well over $100K, but my paychecks show a much smaller amount.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I work in government so I'm somewhat limited in what I can share but I spoke to a City Manager in a nearby community who shared with me he has a lawn mower on payroll who makes $54,000 a year (plus overtime and benefits putting his actual pay over $60,000). He has been working for the City since he was 17 and just keeps getting 3% pay increases through collective bargaining. Why in the world should taxpayers be expected to pay someone who mows the grass $60,000 when there are plenty of people willing to do that job for half of that? The bus driver example was cited in a news article and, admittedly, that driver was making $100k including massive overtime. The problem here is that pensions are largely defined by the average of the top 3 years of income (including overtime) so that bus driver is going to get an exaggerated retirement benefit.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Why in the world should taxpayers be expected to pay someone who mows the grass $60,000 when there are plenty of people willing to do that job for half of that?" Here's what's ignored in things like this. Why blame the unions? What are they supposed to do, NOT ask for as much as they can get? If we're assigning blame, look towards the officials who signed off on these deals or appointed those who did. Then, look towards the voters who elected these same officials. Blaming the worker is insanity. Voters need to look inward and really blame themselves for all of this. It's their apathy and lack of attention that enabled it all. Now, suddenly, caught with their pants down, they still refuse to take repsonsibility and point at the worker. Ridiculous.
Originally Posted By Tony C << who shared with me he has a lawn mower on payroll who makes $54,000 a year (plus overtime and benefits putting his actual pay over $60,000)>> Toro or Snapper?
