Originally Posted By Mr X This is classic. The setup here is this Congressman from Florida gave a speech in which he claimed the Republican health care plan amounted to "don't get sick. if you do get sick, die quickly". The Republicans were outraged and immediately demanded an apology. Here it is. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn9361OuMQA&feature=player_embedded" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...embedded</a>
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> WASHINGTON - Republicans want a Democratic lawmaker to apologize or face a reprimand for saying the GOP wants Americans to "die quickly" if they get sick. They note Democrats' insistence on a similar scolding of a Republican who shouted "You lie!" at President Barack Obama. Rep. Alan Grayson of Florida has refused to apologize for his remarks on the House floor Tuesday night in which he criticized Republican health care proposals as a "blank piece of paper." "If you get sick, America, the Republican health care plan is this: die quickly," he said. "That's right. The Republicans want you to die quickly if you get sick." Republicans are likening the remarks to Rep. Joe Wilson's widely criticized shout of "You lie!" during Obama's address to Congress earlier this month. They say Democrats should insist that Grayson apologize just as they insisted Wilson, R-S.C., should. << Do they really think that criticism of republican tactics during the health care debate is comparable to yelling at the president that he's a liar during a globally televised speech? Of course they don't - they just say so for the sake of political posturing. But wait wait - it gets even richer ... >> Rep. Tom Price of Georgia, who heads the conservative Republican Study Committee, drafted a "resolution of disapproval" saying Grayson's conduct was "a breach of decorum and degraded the integrity and proceedings of the House." "The American people want open and honest discussion," Price said. "They want respectful discussion." << They're suddenly concerned about breaches of decorum? Degrading the integrity? Since when? >> House Republican leader John Boehner supports Price's efforts, said Michael Steel, a spokesman for Boehner. << Is this the same Boehner who voted AGAINST the rebuke for yelling "liar" at the president of the united states during a televised address? Less than two weeks ago? They don't even bother with avoiding the appearance of hypocrisy any more.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Republicans are likening the remarks to Rep. Joe Wilson's widely criticized shout of "You lie!" during Obama's address to Congress earlier this month. >> I guess the Republicans still haven't read the House rules that specifically prohibit accusing the President of lying. Yes, there is a specific rule of conduct for that.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt I'm so glad that Grayson isn't backing down. Repubs don't back down, why should the Dems? Like Michael Moore said, the Dems need to get a spine. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiOQO0gmfA8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...QO0gmfA8</a>
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Grayson was just on Rachel Maddow's show. I love this guy! He called the Republicans "nattering nabobs of negativism" and "knuckle-dragging Neanderthals." Finally a Dem with a spine! YEAH!!
Originally Posted By ecdc Hmmm.... I have some mixed feelings. I love seeing a Democrat stand up for himself. I love that he spoke boldly. And the truth is, we DO have people dying as a result of this. On the other hand, with this kind of reaction, you lose the moral high ground. You do look hypocritical to moderates if you rail on Republicans for being uncivil then saying things like Republicans want sick people to die faster. You can say that Republicans want to put the interests of big business ahead of dying people. You can even make the clear case that Republicans would rather have dead Americans than infringe on corporate profits. You can speak loudly and boldly without using hyperbole that says Republicans want all sick people to die faster.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***You can even make the clear case that Republicans would rather have dead Americans than infringe on corporate profits*** That seems just as inflammatory to me. In any case, the right wingers have nothing but their "outrage" to go on here, since they haven't offered up any alternatives whatsoever. What is one supposed to think they want? What they REALLY want is for everyone to stop being poor and get a job with good insurance, apparently.
Originally Posted By ecdc I gotta say, I absolutely love that apology though. He actually represents a right-leaning district. I wonder if he's just decided, "Screw it; I'm goin' all in and telling everyone how I feel," or if he thinks the attention will get him somewhere.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt I'm sorry, ecdc, but I have to disagree with you on this one. Up until now the Dems, particularly the President, have been patient, offering olive branch after olive branch, while playing nicely with the other side. Meanwhile the GOP stomps, bullies, whines, and prays that Obama will "fail", or worse. What Grayson said is the truth, and I wish that more Dems would speak up like he did.
Originally Posted By ecdc Like I say, I have mixed feelings. I definitely feel very satisfied by hearing what he said. But am I satisfied because it'll get healthcare passed and help the country? Or am I satisfied because someone FINALLY stuck it to the current crop of Republicans? If I'm honest with myself, then it's the latter. And hey, maybe there's a place for that. Maybe this guy will be the one to do what Obama hasn't, and rally the Democratic base to take to the streets and be as outraged as the Republicans. And if he does, at least Democrats will be outraged over something real. They'll be outraged over people dying for lack of healthcare. Republicans can go on being outraged about myths like socialism.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Yeah, I'm with ecdc on this one. I'm as tired of the phony theatrics and obstructionist tactics of the right wing as anyone. I am all for pushing back with facts. But I don't think it's any better to start saying that Republicans want people to die. That sort of thing just entrenches people even deeper. Like ecdc said, you lose the moral high ground with this kind of stuff.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt I'm not so sure about that. I’m personally getting a little tired of the Dems and their willingness to sit by and let the GOP dominate this discussion and steal away our chance at having a health care system equal to or better than most other industrialized nations. Intellectually speaking, I agree that the Repub tactics are exasperating. Unfortunately, I think the reality is that the herd will follow whoever makes the best argument in the most convincing way. The Repubs seem to have a patent on scaring people and it works. We went to Iraq because Bush's White House made a case about an evil dictator and dubious weapons of mass destruction based on misinformation and lies while painting the people who opposed the invasion as cowardly and "un-American". Without an overthrow of that country’s dictatorship the entire free world was "in danger". Dems have failed to frame a logical argument that’s equally as frightening in regards to health care reform for citizens of this country. Like you, I wish that those kinds of tactics weren’t necessary, but I think that in order for some people to understand what is at stake in this debate it is going to take some grandstanding and well placed theatrics to get the job done. Sadly, I think it’s the only kind of tactic that really engages people across the board, and the GOP knows this. Despite their dramatic losses in November, they’ve owned the health care debate since it started at the beginning of the summer. How is this possible with one of the most articulate and effective Presidents we’ve had in a decade AND a Democratic dominated Congress? In the charitable spirit of bipartisanship, the Dems have virtually forfeited the chance to bring about true health care reform. What we currently have on the table is a watered down piece of legislation that will probably be nothing more than health care insurance reform rather than the guaranteed full coverage that American needs. Say what you will, but the “moral high ground” strategy isn’t working.
Originally Posted By ecdc It's hard to deny what you're saying, Hans. For the past three years I keep thinking highly of my country and the people in it. I turn to my over-priced university education that tells me that reason and logic win out. You attack the arguments and you expose their weakness. This, we're taught, is what wins debates. Well for three years I've become more and more disillusioned and even depressed with each passing year. My high expectations are shattered time and time again. Just when I think we've hit rock bottom and could not possibly sink any lower, someone busts out a backhoe and we keep digging even deeper. For the first time in my life I've researched moving to Europe. No, it won't happen tomorrow. It may not happen at all. But I keep it in the back of my head as a possibility. Four or five years ago, even when Bush was screwing everything up, I would've never thought that way. Hey, I even made fun of celebrities who swore they'd move if Kerry lost. And now look at where we are. It seems like we can't do anything in this country other than go to war. Seriously - what was the last great thing we accomplished? It won't be healthcare reform - that's watered-down to almost nothing. We can't even rebuild the Twin Towers. There's a giant hole in the ground 8 years later. We put a man on the moon in 8 years in this country! Now, we can't even build a building. For all our teary-eyed, kumbaya singing immediately after 9/11, maybe it should be Bin Laden with the giant "Mission Accomplished" sign. We. Can't Do. Anything.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Semi-reluctantly, I'm with ecdc and 2oony on this. While part of me loves seeing a Democrat show some stones, there are ways of doing that that don't involve the same kind of overheated rhetoric the GOP has adopted as its favorite form of discourse these days. Note that I'm only speaking about the tone here. It's worth noting that on the substance he's right; about 4,000 Americans die EVERY MONTH due to inadequate health insurance (more than on 9/11, after which we freaked out and changed the rules on air travel, enacted the "Patriot Act," okayed warrantless wiretaps, started a war in Iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11, etc. etc. And this happens every month. Why are we not freaking out more about that?) So Grayson is right on the substance - doing nothing or delaying as the GOP wants will lead to more needless death, no question. His rhetoric is overheated and arguably reductive, but at least the substance is there. When the GOP (and this includes congress members) rant on about death panels and the like, they are ranting in a substance-free zone. So this is not a simple case of "both sides do it, one's no better than the other, blah blah blah." I think the Democrats should be capable of fighting back strongly AND keeping the discourse on a higher level, though.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<I think the Democrats should be capable of fighting back strongly AND keeping the discourse on a higher level, though.>> But we've been doing that and it isn't working. I'm with Hans on this one. It's time to fight fire with fire. Thousands of Americans are dying every month because they lack health insurance or adequate health insurance. The resources are available to save these people, but they cannot get access to those resources through no fault of their own, mostly because they aren't millionaires. We've done the "take the high road and stay civil" thing long enough. This is literally a matter of life and death. The Dems are becoming a laughing stock because the general perception amongst our opponents is that we are a bunch of "girly men" who don't care about the country because we refuse to fight with the Republicans on their turf, toe to toe. It's time to try a different tactic and call the GOP out for the hypocrites they are. Demanding an apology for Grayson in light of their complaints regarding the Dems demanding an apology from Wilson clearly illustrates this. Backing the Republicans into a corner in order to force their true nature to the surface is necessary in order to "educate" the swing voters about why these clowns need to go. I would only hope that Grayson doesn't remain the Lone Ranger amongst the Dems regarding this behavior. It's time to take the media spotlight away from the minority party and put it back on the majority party to speak to truth.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Well, good luck with that. For many months I have been appalled at the GOP's tactics. But if the Democrats are going to adopt those same tactics, well, no thanks. A huge majority of people aren't fooled by scare tactics and histrionics of the right. If they were, we would have President McCain and VP Sarah Palin in the White House right now. People rejected that stuff, how soon we forget. It gets attention in the way a toddler in a restaurant throwing a tantrum gets attention. I'm fine with answering back to their nonsense in a way that sets the record straight. But if the only way to win on health care is to make up stuff like "Republicans want people to die" then it isn't worth winning.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>People rejected that stuff, how soon we forget.<< I'm not convinced that's true. If it is, how do you explain the polls showing loss of support for Obama's healthcare push over the summer, at the same time the GOP was calling him Hitler and screaming in town halls? Like I said, I'm of two minds on this. But I do think both Hans and Skinner make legitimate points about tactics that go beyond the satisfaction of watching a Democrat who actually has a spine.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>It's time to try a different tactic<< How about coming up with a bill that all the Democrats are in favor of. That's really all that need be done. There's little need to engage the GOP at all. The Democrats control the white house, the house and senate. If they can't get it done when they are the controlling majority, who is to blame? Good God, do we ever need a viable third party. The two we have just suck.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>If it is, how do you explain the polls showing loss of support for Obama's healthcare push over the summer, at the same time the GOP was calling him Hitler and screaming in town halls?<< Well, the Democrats have let GOP define what healthcare reform is. They haven't done much to counter it. They haven't come up with a very clear, simple way to explain: • who will be covered • how much it will cost • how it will be paid for • how America will be better for it You know who is really good at this? Bill Clinton. I saw him recently on an interview show (can't recall which at the moment) and he summed the whole thing up in two or three sentences. I mean, he wrapped up the whole deal short, sweet and to the point. I can't imagine anyone save the teabaggers perhaps not saying "I get it now!" after hearing it. Meanwhile, long emotional speeches that get derailed by outbursts are not getting the job done. What's winning is a simplified message: HEALTHCARE REFORM SCARY with nothing factual to back it up. What's needs is a simplified message: HEALTHCARE REFORM GOOD, CAN AFFORD, LIFE WILL BE BETTER FOR IT with factual backup.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>What's needs is a simplified message: HEALTHCARE REFORM GOOD, CAN AFFORD, LIFE WILL BE BETTER FOR IT with factual backup.<< They've done that. They've done it to death. And what's the response (that as the polls show, has some impact): There are secret death panels. It's a slippery slope to government takeover They're going to kill grandma It's a socialist plan And people are dumb enough to buy it! And they aren't just the teabaggers. I want to believe that being rational and logical about this works. I hope it does. But the evidence isn't that convincing. And, like it or not, Alan Grayson's comment continues to get attention in the media while reason doesn't. Now Nancy Pelosi has said he shouldn't have to apologize and that's getting attention. It does make Democrats look like they're sick of the GOP. It does give hope to the base. And BTW, you're of course 100% right about the party. For all our whining about Republicans, this is a Democratic failure through and through. Like Jon Stewart said, these guys couldn't get laid if they went to a house whose sole purpose was to have consequence- and disease-free sex with Democratic lawmakers. They have the numbers. They don't have the votes. Whose fault is that?
