Originally Posted By ecdc Another one. You know what? I think people are right. This is a mental illness issue: the NRA is insane and has completely lost its collective mind.
Originally Posted By Daannzzz No it is just Left Wingers perpetrating these events to sway the American Public. Radicals that don't want their children shot up.
Originally Posted By ecdc Truth. I'm a LABEK: a Leftist Against Bullets Entering Kids. Don't worry, gun owners. I totally support the 2nd Amendment which gives us the right to make sure your guns are "well regulated."
Originally Posted By CuriousConstance Jesus Christ you just gave me a heart attack, ecdc! MY kids are in an Oregon School right now! Luckily I easily found it on Google and confirmed it wasn't near me. *deep breaths*
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Did anyone happen to realize in the Las Vegas shootings yesterday an armed private individual confronted the two shooters and he was killed as a result? Fat lot of good the "arm everyone and there won't be a problem" mindset did there.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 No, I didn't realize that. But that's an excellent point. And of course the cops were armed as well.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/10/justice/las-vegas-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1">http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/10/...t=hp_bn1</a> From the link: Bystander went after Jerad Miller Within hours of Fielder's exchange with Amanda, 22, and Jerad, 31, the couple had shot to death two police officers and a bystander who apparently tried stop their rampage. That man, Joseph Wilcox, was with Jeremy Tanner, a longtime friend at a Las Vegas Walmart when the Millers walked through the door. Tanner recalled seeing Jerad Miller come into the store, seeing Miller dressed in some kind of fatigues and wearing gear. Tanner had to very quickly process what was happening. He heard Miller shout, "This is the beginning of the revolution! Everybody get out! You will be shot!" Tanner looked at his friend Wilcox. He knew Wilcox had a concealed carry permit and sometimes had a gun on him. Customers and staff were fleeing the store. Wilcox "had the option to go left to exit the store to safety," Tanner told CNN. But he chose not to leave. Wilcox instead stayed inside and confronted Jerad Miller, Tanner said. Tanner told CNN his friend was unaware that Jerad Miller was with Amanda Miller. Wilcox was shot, authorities said.
Originally Posted By SuperDry I'm surprised that Eddie Eagle didn't swing into action to prevent the latest tragedy.
Originally Posted By fkurucz Jeez, it's almost on a daily basis now. I haven't looked at the international news websites. I can only imagine what they are saying about us.
Originally Posted By ecdc I had read that about the armed bystander. It's really too bad he was killed, but I hope this is a wake up call for all the gun fanatics with paranoid delusions of being a hero that it just doesn't work that way.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Did anyone happen to realize in the Las Vegas shootings yesterday an armed private individual confronted the two shooters and he was killed as a result? Fat lot of good the "arm everyone and there won't be a problem" mindset did there.<< I'll bet anything that there was at least one concealed carry permit holder packing heat in the Aurora theater. My wife works a public library. When people get a library card they have to show ID, and she tells me that it's often a concealed carry permit that they show her. According to the Library director, the local PD estimates that there are usually a few armed people in the library at any given time. The library has considered declaring itself a gun free zone, but enforcing that would require installing metal detectors, so they have decided to punt on that for now.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck Yes, the reality of armed encounters are far different from the fantasy. However, if the concealed carry guy who was shot decided to get involved in order to help protect innocent lives, that makes him a pretty brave man, in my opinion. He put it on the line and lost, but at least he tried.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Yes, the reality of armed encounters are far different from the fantasy. However, if the concealed carry guy who was shot decided to get involved in order to help protect innocent lives, that makes him a pretty brave man, in my opinion. He put it on the line and lost, but at least he tried." There's a difference between courage and stupidity, however. Having a concealed permit is one thing, but if you've had no training confronting dangerous armed suspects when you're outnumbered you have no business trying to be a hero. If you pull out your weapon, you might as well just put the gun to your own head.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer My uncle was a LAPD homicide detective for 25 years. Every time someone talks about being armed as being a good defense, he points out that the guy who already has his gun out is the one who is going to win the shootout.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Yup, same with my father in law. He was LAPD as well. He would just start to laugh at the idea of "amateurs" thinking they could so something if they also had a gun.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck I just don't think stupid is the right way to address the guy. What you are saying, is the correct response, even if you are carrying a weapon, is to run and hide. Perhaps this guy felt that in having a weapon, he also had an obligation to at least try. Suppose the madman was shooting kids? Would it still be right to run and hide, or face the threat? People enter burning buildings at great peril to themselves to try and save lives, is that stupid? There is a difference between courage and stupidity, as there is in heroism and cowardice. There are greater things in life than self preservation.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Let's take these one at a time. "I just don't think stupid is the right way to address the guy." You certainly can't rule it out. If he had no idea what he was doing, practically a given, and all he had was a permit to conceal his weapon and the gun, but no training whatsoever on how to use it in these situations or training of any kind in a crisis situation, then it would be folly at a minimum, stupidity at its core, to do what he did. And since all it got him was dead, I vote for stupid. "What you are saying, is the correct response, even if you are carrying a weapon, is to run and hide. Perhaps this guy felt that in having a weapon, he also had an obligation to at least try." If he had no idea other than to say "stop" or whatever he might have said, then you better believe it. No one in law enforcement would ever recommend he do what he did. "Suppose the madman was shooting kids? Would it still be right to run and hide, or face the threat?" That isn't what was happening here, so put away the strawman. "People enter burning buildings at great peril to themselves to try and save lives, is that stupid?" Very often it is. "There is a difference between courage and stupidity, as there is in heroism and cowardice. There are greater things in life than self preservation." Was it courageous? I suppose it was. Was it stupid? Was he preserved? No on both counts, unless you count embalming him as preserved. Would he have been a coward to wait for the professionals? Not at all. I was in a job for over 22 years that was like being a police officer without a gun. I've been in hundreds of fights, if you count 30 seconds to a couple of minutes sometimes wrestling a person into a point where they could be subdued and handcuffed a fight. NEVER, whenever I encountered a weapon, did I think I was bullet proof. I backed off immediately. Every time.
Originally Posted By fkurucz "There is a difference between courage and stupidity, as there is in heroism and cowardice. There are greater things in life than self preservation." So, you expect all men to be "White Knights"? Did the the dead white knight leave behind a widow and children? If he did, I would say that his obligation to them came first, and she probably wishes he hadn't gone and played hero.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Arrrgghh. Was it courageous? I suppose it was. Was it stupid? Yes. Was he preserved? No unless you count embalming him as preserved. Would he have been a coward to wait for the professionals? Not at all. Fixed.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck One thing, if he had not been carrying a gun he would likely be alive right now. Obviously it was a mistake. Still, while I may not agree with his choice to carry a weapon, I do admire his attempt to make a difference. I don't expect everyone to be an armed crusader, but if a guy does carry, and finds himself in a situation where he might make a difference, well, isn't that the whole point of concealed carry?
