Originally Posted By DAR <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080714/us_nm/guantanamo_hearings_hamdan_dc" target="_blank">http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200...amdan_dc</a> To which I say boo freakin hoo.
Originally Posted By gadzuux Why? Because he's a muslim? Because he's a "terrorist"? Because the military rounded him up and therefore he must be guilty of something? Or because you don't care about who we are as a people and as a nation - a society under laws? Would you feel the same way if you were told that the afghans were doing this to US captives? They will you know, and we have no right to complain, do we? None. And of course, nothing that this 'driver' has said is admissable in court. After fifty days of sleep deprivation, beatings, and gawd knows what else, he'd say he was napoleon. Your empty bravado isn't well thought out.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost I can think of a few thousand innocent people and their families that were tortured, many to death in NYC and Washington and a field in Pennsylvania and chances are he celebrated with the rest of his group at the time. Sorry, couldn't care less if I had too. I'd like to see him go meet up with his 70 or so virgins on the other side. The sooner the better.
Originally Posted By gadzuux "Chances are"? You're willing to sanction outright torture against someone who likely never did anything but drive the car because maybe he celebrated 9/11? The real irony here is that these people are the same ones who go around slapping each others back and complimenting each other on what "great americans" they are. This is ignorance. This is racism. This is rank stupidity. Who's next to volunteer their ugly views?
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>Why? Because he's a muslim? Because he's a "terrorist"? Because the military rounded him up and therefore he must be guilty of something? Or because you don't care about who we are as a people and as a nation - a society under laws?<<< Why? Because he and his friends would like to see you dead. Let's drop the denial banter and smell the coffee. We know his agenda. We can be soft hearted suckers and more will be dead or we can fight fire with fire. "A society under laws"? Well, last I looked it was against the law to randomly kill thousands of people because they don't agree with you. Do you recommend that we just slap his hand and tell him politely that what he stands for isn't nice, and please stop? We are all civilized people you know. Well, some more than others. "Because he's a "terrorist"? Yea, that pretty much sums it up right there.
Originally Posted By X-san I wonder what "vital information" they were trying to get out of this $200 a month lackey.
Originally Posted By gadzuux You've decided he's a terrorist. That's more than our military or our government has done. >> We know his agenda. << No, we don't. We know that there are people out there that fit the description you provide, but we don't know that about this one individual. But let's assume that you're correct. By torturing him, we invalidate anything he might have said. And by torturing him, we sanction our enemies to torture our military members who are captured. So where's the upside - vengence? Blood lust? Is that what you want? And you're not too picky about who's on the receiving end, are you? Here's a tip - yours in an indefensible position, and you'd be best served by keeping it to yourself rather than reveal your innate brutality.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>By torturing him, we invalidate anything he might have said. And by torturing him, we sanction our enemies to torture our military members who are captured.<< Bingo. In our rush to even the score, in our mad dash to satisfy our righteous indignation and give these people "what they have a comin' to them" we put more American lives in danger. We put our military in danger by making them subjects of potential torture. We put American citizens in danger by getting false information out of someone who just wants the pain to stop. There was an article in the New York Times a few weeks ago on the interrogator of Khalid Sheik Mohammed. It detailed how he got information from him. He did it by essentially being the good cop; by the time they were done, Mohammed was writing the interrogator's wife poems and they had long discussions about religion. We got the information we did because the interrogator was patient and built a relationship with the man. But by all means, let your red state outrage dictate how we move forward; just don't be surprised when it doesn't work.
Originally Posted By DAR Some of you just don't get it. Let me say it loud so maybe you can. THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KILL US. THEY DON'T WANT TO BE OUR FRIENDS. THEY NEVER WANT AND THEY NEVER WILL BE. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR SKULLS.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I have it through my skull that terrorists don't want to be our friends. I understand that they need to be captured or killed. What I haven't gotten through my head is how we are any better if we start turning to torture, or how reliable the information we get is after this sort of thing. If vengeance is what you're after, fine, torture does that. It punishes a person, gives them physical and emotional pain and suffering. But I question if it works as a way to get information. Look no further than John McCain. Under ridiculous amounts of torture, he came up with all sorts of inventive ways to screw with his captors, giving them all sorts of false info. To the best of my knowledge, he never gave them a thing that helped the enemy.
Originally Posted By DAR John McCain was and still is a man who served his country with pride and honor. He was doing the job asked of him which was noble. Words that are foreign to these people.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Not to equate John McCain with a terrorist in any way, but I can see a "true believer" zealot terrorist not suddenly breaking under pressure and telling us what we'd want to know. Or at least giving us a lot of false information. We're talking about people who quite willingly blow themselves up for their cause. Why is it difficult to believe that because they are sleep deprived or water tortured they'll suddenly change their minds and cooperate.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Nothing from nothing here, but Bin laden's driver was a man who served his cause with pride and honor, as far as he was concerned. He was doing the job asked of him which was noble, as far as he was concerned. Words that are foreign to those of us who think Muslims aren't as capable as someone like McCain under pressure.
Originally Posted By X-san It seems that Dar has made it clear, however, that he's an advocate of torture as a form of punishment rather than as a means for extracting information. Which seems to be pretty much what they're doing down there anyway. I mean, seriously, how much vital info would a leader's driver have anyway?
Originally Posted By DAR <<Nothing from nothing here, but Bin laden's driver was a man who served his cause with pride and honor, as far as he was concerned. He was doing the job asked of him which was noble, as far as he was concerned. Words that are foreign to those of us who think Muslims aren't as capable as someone like McCain under pressure.>> There's nothing noble about terrorism, fighting it is noble.
Originally Posted By DAR <<It seems that Dar has made it clear, however, that he's an advocate of torture as a form of punishment rather than as a means for extracting information.>> You're right. I don't apologize for that stance, never have never will and tough if some of you don't like it.
Originally Posted By X-san Depends. Would you consider the Revolutionary War soldiers "noble"? They were terrorists, essentially.
