Originally Posted By ecdc Bill Clinton came to Salt Lake today to campaign for Hillary. Tickets were $50 a pop so it was a really affordable way to see the former President at a fundraiser (since I don't have $2,300 lying around). It reminded me just how night and day it is between listening to Bill and listening to Bush. For starters, he didn't dumb it down - he addressed several topics and acknowledged their complexity. He talked about the lopsided trade problem we face with China - they can import anything and we face huge tariffs and trade restrictions with our products going into their country. But since we've borrowed so much money from China to bankroll Iraq while also giving Bill Clinton a tax cut he doesn't deserve (his words), we can't do anything about the trade problem. Clinton called the borrowed money from China, Japan, and South Korea the dirty underbelly of the Iraq war and talked about how tough of an issue it will be to tackle. He talked about Denmark's economic growth while reducing energy consumption, the threat of Turkish Kurds finding refuge in Iraq, and the decrease of wages and health insurance in our so-called good economy. It's remarkable to listen to a politician talk so intelligently about real issues (instead of manufactured outrage) and know that the audience will understand. I have no doubt that if Bill Clinton were allowed to be President again, our country would be much better off. I believe with him in the White House advising Hillary, it's the next best thing.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo ecdc - I am so jealous, it sounds soooo cool. Clinton was definately the best president of my lifetime, and one of the best of all time IMHO.
Originally Posted By Mr X You were alive for Reagan weren't you Dave? Love him or hate him, the guy changed the world in a BIG way...and ushering out the cold war and ushering in the biggest economic expansion of any nation in history ain't no small feat. Not that Clinton wasn't cool, but I think he was still riding the powerful, positive waves that Reagan created out of fear and thin air at that point. (just my humble opinion of course)
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I hated Reagan with a passion and do feel he is actually responsible for a lot of the mess in the Middle East, as well as the profound negative impact the American economy suffered in his time. Also add the fact that before monkey man Bush Jr, he was the least adept at public speaking and personal diplomacy of my life time. So no, I do not like Reagan at all and feel he is the 2nd worst president of my lifetime after the idiot currently in the Oval office.
Originally Posted By Mr X Wow. Harsh words. I won't comment on the middle-east, as that is a valid point to be sure, but the economy of the 80's and beyond has been amazing and, "least adept at public speaking"?? The great COMMUNICATOR!? I just don't see that. Not at all. As for diplomacy, he sure was the carry the big stick and threaten to trade it in for a nuke kinda guy...but it did seem to work on big bad russia imho. Anyway, yeah Clinton was pretty cool.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Dave - remember that academically I studied International Relations in a country outside of the US. The demolition of the 2nd Cold War was not really down to Reagan and Nukes. It was due to a number of inefficiencies and economic issues behind the Iron Curtain, as well as clandestine fringe political movements as well as the rise of the Russian Mafia. But the victors in History write history. Read Francis Fukyama's the End of History - an interesting and biased text, but even as a Reagan supporter, he has some interesting stories. Also Oleg Gordyevski's work on the Fall of the KGB and the USSR. As for communication, his speeches were abysmal - for an actor, it is laughable. And the economy was rubbish - it was a boom bust market, and the structures put in place under Reaganomics were a key driver for black Wednesday and the international recession 20 years ago. So ya, I am almost as bitter about the clown as I am monkey man Bush.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Not to mention the fall in standards of education and medicare under his reign, which the Clinton Admin did much to fix. Also, as a native american I cannot forgive the time Reagan was governor of California and wanted to build a new mansion (when the existing one was fine) on native american holy land.
Originally Posted By Mr X **Also, as a native american I cannot forgive the time Reagan was governor of California and wanted to build a new mansion (when the existing one was fine) on native american holy land.** That's pretty messed up.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo MMMhmmmm - I don't want to go on the war path, but I do get really angry at how he has been turned into a post modern hero.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "As for communication, his speeches were abysmal - for an actor, it is laughable." I'd suggest this is all subjective. Moreover, your view of his communication skills just might be colored by your opinion of him on other matters.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo True, but as a professional orator, I believe I have room to openly judge on presentation skills too. I think it speaks volumes when he was dedicating Disneyland that he had to look at the script to comment on how busy the park was (which was over subscribed due to counterfeit tickets).
Originally Posted By Lisann22 Don't forget the California homeless issue too davewasbaloo. That was Reagan's baby too. I'm right there with you when it comes to him.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 The great historian Barbara Tuchman once said, when asked of Reagan, that she thought one of the most dangerous inventions of the 20th century was the TelePromter, because it "allows a minor individual to appear to be a statesman." I also think he receives way too much credit for the end of the cold war. If, in 1985, the Soviets had chosen a Breshnev clone rather than Gorbachev (meaning someone who insisted on following Breshnev's policies rather than Glasnost and Perestroika), there was precious little we could have done about it, and the Soviet Union could have limped along for another 10 years easily before finally collapsing. Then I suppose Clinton could have taken the credit for ending the cold war. But US policy was remarkably consistent from 1945-1989 no matter who was in the white house - it was Gorbachev and the other factors davewasbaloo mentioned that changed the equation and led to the Soviet Union collapsing when it did. It had nothing to do with rhetoric or pointing more nukes at them; we had more than enough for Mutually Assured Destruction for decades.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I have no doubt that if Bill Clinton were allowed to be President again, our country would be much better off. " Could it be much worse? These last four years have been an untold disaster. Here's a poem a friend of mine (well, haven't heard from him in a while, but...) wrote about Reagan. <a href="http://www.pemmicanpress.com/CurrentIssue/solos/b-cesmat-reagan.html" target="_blank">http://www.pemmicanpress.com/C urrentIssue/solos/b-cesmat-reagan.html</a>
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Fantastic jonvn - thank you for that - I had forgotten about some of those transgressions as well. Noriaga and the Contras - sheesh!
Originally Posted By DAR What did everyone get bored bashing Bush, so they figured they'd bash Reagan. Once again tolerance from the left.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA Say what you will about Reagan's politics, he had the ability to make the American people feel good about being American people. I wish George W. Bush had that same ability. To me, Bush's nervousness always makes me feel nervous.
