Originally Posted By Schmitty Good Vibes I don’t like to visit World Events much and I’m really loath to start a topic here, but lately there have been some intelligent conversations here, and I watched something that put a burning feeling in me that I had to make a post. I just watched a show on the History Channel titled “Natures Engineersâ€. It addressed the works of beavers, birds, bees, termites, spiders and others. A bee has a brain the size of a grain of sand. A termite has a much smaller one. Yet a human with the brain the size of a grapefruit will spend four years in college and still be no match for the structural engineer that these small creations are just about from their birth. And there was another example after another about the brilliance of creation throughout this show. And the whole time I was watching this, my brain kept crying out Romans 1:20!! Romans 1:20!! In my favorite translation (I have many) it says: “For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even His eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.†Now, I’m not trying to make a sermon out of this. I’ve learned the hard way that the internet is not a place where a sermon can be made. But I had to share the above. I’m going to be without internet access for the rest of the night – don’t even have my iPhone with me. I’ll probably lurk this site tomorrow, but I probably won’t post in this topic again. I’m sure that there will be many atheists who will come to this topic and rip me a new one. Why would they do that? Well, because I’ve challenged there faith. In my opinion, it takes a lot more faith to believe that all this took place by chance than the fact that there was an intelligent designer behind it all. It seems people can’t stand to have there faith challenged and get quite upset about it. Side thought number one: In a VERY limited sense, I believe in evolution. I also believe in ‘survival of the fittest’ even though the majority of scientists that believe in evolution of the species do not, as I also do not believe, that ‘survival of the fittest’ was/is the driving force behind evolution. I don’t believe the Earth was created in seven 24 hour days or even seven millinea. I thought you should know that. So I ask you all to try to see the television show I just watched, consider the scripture I just cited, try to open your eyes and think about what you really know as opposed to what you believe. Maybe you’ll even pray about it. Then look around again, eyes open. If I can get just one of you to do that, then sticking my neck out on this post was worth it. Side thought number two: If you have an interest in studying the Bible, don’t start with Romans. There is a ton of good stuff in there, but it is very meaty and difficult to get through. Basterdizing another scripture, it would be like feeding a baby a steak. One last thought for the atheists who are probably even now ripping me apart. My opinion is that the principal reason for not believing that there is a God is because of all the suffering and horrible things that are going on right now on our planet and have been going on for thousands of years. I can’t sympathize more for your feelings, especially when most of it occurred ‘in the name of God’. Didn’t you ever read that my God, the God you read about in the Bible, is not the God of this world? 1 Corinthians 4: 3,4 says “If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God might not shine through.†So the god of this world is not the God I worship. How can my God possibly sit by and allow these heinous things to continue? I can’t understand that you’d put limits on the Creator of the universe that He would not be capable of setting all things straight, even, for example, for someone who might have been killed in Auschwitz or tortured to death in the inquisition. Stop trying to place limits on what God can and will do. No one is capable of understanding his brilliance. Yes it takes faith, but faith is what He requires. I have my faith, you have yours. I hope DlandJB will forgive me for quoting her, but I couldn’t put it better: “As the great prophet Bob Dylan has observed ‘You gotta serve somebody.’ †End. If you want another reason why I believe in God, go to Community where I’m simultaneously posting a topic, “Tales of my Father 3â€
Originally Posted By mele Thanks for braving WE, Schmitty! We need different voices around here. You've been in my thoughts lately. Hope you're doing a bit better.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Schmitty, I would never dismiss what you say. Although I attend a Catholic Church I would not say that my beliefs are those of a typical Christian. But I do believe something must be out there. Something greater and more powerful than we can comprehend. We have the "big boom", but what existed BEFORE the big boom. Who/what created that mass of energy that exploded and became the infinite universe? Where does the space come from that the Universe is constantly expanding into? These are questions that science cannot answer. The only explanation I can imagine sounds like what we call "God" to me! You can debate about the details, and whether or not God plays an active role in the average person's daily life. But in my mind there is no doubt that God exists! As for his influence on our daily life; I would not even attempt to guess. Just as I feel that 'God' is beyond our human comprehension, the way he works is also beyond our comprehension. But he is there; I have no doubt about that.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I’m going to be without internet access for the rest of the night – don’t even have my iPhone with me.<< The iPhone - now *that's* a reason to believe in God
Originally Posted By ecdc I enjoyed your post, schmitty. I only have a couple of thoughts. First, I have great respect for those people who feel the hand of a higher power through nature or the wonder of this earth. As a non-believer, I would never try and claim that everything about this earth can be understood through the 5 senses alone. Call it whatever you like - divinity or a branch of physics not yet understood. But where I break from you is when you take your experience and then try and tie it to the Bible or the Judeo-Christian God. From my perspective, such a move minimizes and even destroys the experience you had. To take this sense of wonder that we're a part of something much larger than ourselves, and to then try and cram it and force it into the narrow box that is human-created religion, isn't where I'd personally like to take that experience. It's taking something spiritual and making it religious; it's taking the unknowable and tying it to the known - a human invention like the Bible or organized religion. I understand that you might not be trying to do that - you made a Biblical reference and perhaps I'm over estimating that. But that's my perspective on what happens in all faiths. People do feel something that transcends themselves, they do feel like they're a part of something bigger than just 70% water, molecules, and tissue. In my childhood faith of Mormonism, this kind of experience is immediately interpreted it mean that Joseph Smith is a prophet and the Book of Mormon is true. In Evangelical christianity, it's interpreted to mean that Jesus is lord and savior. In Islam, it's interpreted to mean that there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet. They ruin it by claiming they know what it means and tying it to a very specific religious tradition that only boxes in the mind by letting them think they have the answers, instead of freeing the mind by expanding it to other possibilities. >>One last thought for the atheists who are probably even now ripping me apart.<< Again, I personally don't consider myself an Atheist. That might be hard for some to swallow, but I consider myself an Agnostic. I'd never be so arrogant (and I know I can be pretty arrogant, as my wife gently reminds me) as to say I know for certain there's no god. I simply don't assume that that which cannot be explained automatically equals evidence for God. I feel bad that you believe you'd be "ripped apart" by non-believers. My perspective is that non-believers are often seen as unreasonable or harsh. But I don't think that's necessarily because it's who they are, but I think it's natural to see people as dangerous or radical when they so bluntly challenge the status quo. Religion and belief in God is so ingrained in each of us that when someone challenges it, we might immediately see them as "ripping us apart." In reality, I actually see it the other way around; it's the religious that are radical and "out there." To claim you know who god is, what he wants, and what his divine book is? That's a radical, extremely authoritative perspective. It's very aggressive and "in your face" - it's just been a part of our culture for so long that people don't recognize it as that. So, my long-windedness getting the better of me again, I see it differently. It seems that almost anything that's cloaked in religion in our culture is ok to say, no matter how out there it is. We routinely hear Evangelicals proclaim that gays are sinners, that abortion is murder (and by extension, the woman who aborts her child is a murderer), etc., and we're supposed to be a-ok with it. These are extremely aggressive, hurtful things to say. But when a non-believer questions the existence of God, it's often seen as "out there" or over the top. I see it as perfectly reasonable, given that claims of God's existence are, by definition, matters of faith and unprovable. If something can't be proven, shouldn't it be questioned?
Originally Posted By Mr X Once again ecdc wrote pretty much everything I was thinking about. No need to chime in for me, see above. Very eloquent, ecdc, especially your third paragraph which is exactly what I was thinking when I read the original post (and by the way, it's really neat when you get one of those "ah HA!" moments in life, I would never belittle something like that Schmitty!).
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I feel bad that you believe you'd be "ripped apart" by non-believers. My perspective is that non-believers are often seen as unreasonable or harsh.*** Agreed. I find it fascinating that a religion person can say something like "I'm certain god exists, I know it just as I know this is my hand and this is my arm" and people nod and smile and applaud that person's "strong convictions", and yet when I or somebody else says "I'm sorry, I don't believe in this stuff at all, there's not a shred of proof and it's no different from any other fairy tale", that is considered "ripping them apart".
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>I find it fascinating that a religion person can say something like "I'm certain god exists, I know it just as I know this is my hand and this is my arm" and people nod and smile and applaud that person's "strong convictions", and yet when I or somebody else says "I'm sorry, I don't believe in this stuff at all, there's not a shred of proof and it's no different from any other fairy tale", that is considered "ripping them apart".<<< Agreed. That's what I like about the UK, people of faith, agnostics and athiests are all entitled to their view. It's all a real live and let live scenario. SGV - as for your original post, that is why I think there may be a god. I am just not into organised religion.
Originally Posted By Mr X After you quoted me, Dave, I re-read what I wrote and I'd amend it to say something a little different in keeping with the spirit of this thread AND in clarifying what it is that bothers me. What bugs ME the most, and what I find insulting and ridiculous, is the type of person who would write "I'm certain god exists, I know it just as I know this is my hand and this is my arm, and THIS is exactly what he is all about and you can read it in THIS book". That's more to the point, anyway. I agree with ecdc. I don't discount the idea that there are wonders in the universe all around us that we don't have a CLUE about yet (maybe never). I don't even discount the idea of something godlike existing, perhaps. But what I do find ridiculous is people running around claiming they know exactly what "he" is, and what he wants, and specifically who he has talked to and why. That's the delusional, "fairy tale" aspect that really takes away from the reality, and has for pretty much recorded human history (interesting, that). Thus I really appreciate what ecdc wrote. He said it all.
Originally Posted By Mr X It's also interesting how most religions count on accounts from "a long time ago" to prove their supposed points, and yet if the same thing happened today the person or persons saying such a thing would be scoffed at or worse. Very convenient to leave it all in the deep past. That's one reason why I find the mormon thing quite interesting, actually. In that they believe in a living, active CURRENT god who speaks to them through certain people. I don't buy into it, but I certainly recognize the courage it takes to claim a religious stance and not leave it all to whatever happened a long time ago. IF there is a god, and who the heck really knows anyway, but if so, I would hope and assume that he is currently active and trying to help and wouldn't leave everything to a dusty old book that holds no current day relevance except as a moral guide of sorts.
Originally Posted By Schmitty Good Vibes Thanks for all of your very good posts. My own beliefs are surprisingly not so far from yours, but I just don't want to get into all of that here on LP. >>>>and to then try and cram it and force it into the narrow box<<<<< That's probably the biggest frustration I have when I talk to people about God. I don't know if they lack imagination, or just absolutely buy into whatever they were taught. In my view, as a believer in God, people keep trying to put limits on God. They try to humanize him. More ridiculously, they try to think for him. We all know everyone (me included - I have to watch myself) tries to speak for him. Anyway, thanks for the great posts, and once again, I’ll be away for a while, but I’ll come back to lurk.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>That's probably the biggest frustration I have when I talk to people about God. I don't know if they lack imagination, or just absolutely buy into whatever they were taught. In my view, as a believer in God, people keep trying to put limits on God. They try to humanize him. More ridiculously, they try to think for him. We all know everyone (me included - I have to watch myself) tries to speak for him.<< Well put. I believe people unwittingly make God into a jerk. (I frequently use that term for God, not to be disrespectful, but because a good friend of mine who is a believer frequently uses that phrase: "God is not a jerk!" when trying to cut through the dogma.) They historically have assigned qualities to God that make him a jerk - racism, sexism, genocide, etc. But then believers insist that this is really human traits and people projecting their own faults on God. I couldn't agree more, but then those same believers then turn around (and I'm not at all saying all believers do this) and do exactly the same thing today. The racism of 50 or 100 years ago that people blamed on God was human error; the homophobia that people blame on God today is just "god's way" or "god's morals." The sayings about being ignorant of history makes you doomed to repeat are true, but they just don't mean picking up a book or taking a history lesson. You need to be able to recognize in yourself and your culture the mistakes of the past. Believers and Biblical literalists who insist that homosexuality is wrong are failing that test; they don't see themselves repeating the mistakes of believers in the past who blamed racism on the Bible. They don't see in themselves the literalists of the past who attacked certain aspects of science, only to choke on their own words later. Belief can be a wonderful and terrible thing.
Originally Posted By pecos bill From a nonbeliever's point of view, its really all about free thinking and being open to the myriad of possibility, as opposed to limiting yourself to the archaic views of organised religion. I dont think the most jaded non believer would question the fact that there are things we simply cannot comprehend, but when one of hundreds of groups boasts with absolute certainty that they have all the answers, well, you get the picture. Perhaps if religion had not stifled scientific knowledge for the last two thousand years, we would be much closer to understanding the mysteries of the Universe. "Religion is about turning untested belief into unshakeable truth through the power of institutions and the passage of time." -Richard Dawkins
Originally Posted By utahjosh My religion encourages all to learn as much as we can. Let's study and figure out as much as we can about how this wonderful world works! I don't think man alone, however advanced we get, can gain a full understanding of how life works, came to be, and all the astounding miracles that nature has to offer.
Originally Posted By utahjosh And believing in God, and even believing in the organized religion I belong to, does not limit my understanding, my growth, or my potential as a citizen of this world. It only enhances it.
Originally Posted By Schmitty Good Vibes >>>Perhaps if religion had not stifled scientific knowledge for the last two thousand years<<< Or murdered millions of people.
Originally Posted By ecdc Great post, pecos. One of my frustrations about discussing religion is the red herring used by believers that says non-believers think every single thing in the world can be explained by science. It's not true, but it's clearly a debate tactic used to box them in. By claiming that, it attempts to put non-believers in the position of having to offer an explanation of every single oddity or seemingly inexplicable event that's ever happened. And when non-believers obviously aren't able to do that, believers respond with "See! We just can't explain everything" and then make the illogical leap that this is somehow evidence for God.
Originally Posted By ecdc I've probably said too much on religion this morning. This is the havoc several cups of coffee, free wifi, and a delayed train can cause. Oh well. >>My religion encourages all to learn as much as we can. Let's study and figure out as much as we can about how this wonderful world works!<< Josh, I think you're a terrific guy, but your loyalty to Mormonism really opens you up to criticism when you say stuff like this I've been Mormon long enough to know that it preaches what you said, but doesn't really believe it. It's fine with studying and figuring out, until that studying and figuring out leads one to question the faith. Then, suddenly, it's seen as dangerous and threatening. Doubt, questioning, and faith journeying are not to be encouraged; rather, they're discouraged and seen as something to save people from. Mind you, this is par for the course in most religion; but it's a bit silly to suggest otherwise for Mormonism.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Faith is a fragile thing. It can be reasoned away by a non-believer. It can be so powerful to a believer. A discussion board will never convince a non-believer to believe. Ever. And I won't ever try to do that. But no amount of typing can convince me to stop believing what I believe. It can't be explained in words, it transcends them. I still believe my faith does nothing but good for my soul, my life, my relationships, and my existence on this planet.
Originally Posted By pecos bill If there is indeed a God of the infinite cosmos, then I doubt the inhabitants of Earth are one of it's chief concerns.
