Originally Posted By skinnerbox Simple question, Republican posters who defend Romney: Is it morally OK for Christian political candidates to lie repeatedly to potential voters in an effort to win their elections? Mitt Romney is now doubling down on the lies about Medicare provider (NOT recipient) reductions, welfare reform at the state level, and the whole "you didn't build that" misrepresentation. Romney is lying about Obama on multiple issues, repeatedly, over and over and over. Why is it OK for a self-professed Christian such as Romney to do this, bearing false witness against one's neighbor?
Originally Posted By planodisney Isn't Obama a self professed christian? His lies and distortions so far have been epic!!! Man you, more than anyone else on this site I think, live in your own little liberal bubble. Do you ever get any of your info from anywhere besides MSNBC?
Originally Posted By fkurucz Let's see... Skinnerbox provided examples (such as the odious and deceitful "You didn't build it" commercial) Plano's reply was an ad hominem attack against skinnerbox. Point to skinnerbox.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Very nice deflection, plano. Try answering the question directly instead of trying to dodge the issue. Mitt Romney has been lying up a blue streak. He's lied regarding the AHCA's Medicare provider cost reductions, the Republican governors request to alter the "Welfare to Work" program, not to mention taking Obama's comments about government's role in building infrastructure and deliberately misrepresenting it. I just gave you three verifiable Romney campaign lies, still being told by Romney as of this weekend. Is Romney justified, as a Christian, in personally spreading these lies on the campaign trail? Yes or no?
Originally Posted By planodisney Its not about points or who wins arguments, at least to me it isnt. I am sorry I attacked you skinner. it wasnt called for. I just get tired of flipping over here every now and then and reading the blasting of every single gaff or mistake or stupid comment or crazy position than any mainstream or obscure republican holds, while never commenting on or criticizing stupidity, hate or radicalness from the left. it makes you guys just not seem genuinely concerned about truth in anything but a few social policies that some are obsessed about. have you not seen or vheard debbie wassermon schultz get slapped down twice lately,hardcore, from wold and anderson on CNN. neither one of those guys could even be remotely classified as middle of the road, but her lies and distortions were soooo far off the charts they would have lost ANY credibility if they didnt call her on it. She is one of the cheif surrogates and is out there talking about exactly what the campaign is telling her to talk abpout. How about the obama campaign trying to scare seniors than Romney is going to take away their medicare. How about factcheck.org saying that after looking into both Obamas and Romneys statements on the Obamas comments and adds against Romney, claiming that he outsourced jobs, that many of the statements were flat out untrue and there was no evidence that Romney outsourced jobs while at bain. you might want to read the article in the Chicago Tribune entitled "Beyond human Error on Romney", " Pinocchio has nothing on Obama." That is actually the tittle of the article. again, Im not trying to make this an Im right you are wrong argument. i just cant handle the idea from people on either side frankly, that their side is pure and virtuous while the other side, or guy, is evil. It's the epitomy of the shallowness and surface thinking that liberals claim to hate.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 I guess if people want to concern themselves with what either candidate does or says through this election let them. It's pretty certain that I will vote for neither Obama or Romney so if one side says Obama is a socialist bent on wrecking this country. Or Romney is going to bow to his corporate masters with a VP that wants to kill women if you want to be morally outraged go ahead. It's not for me.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Its not about points or who wins arguments, at least to me it isnt. I am sorry I attacked you skinner. it wasnt called for.>> Thanks. It's not always easy to take the high road when emotions run high; I've been there myself. I appreciate the apology. <<I just get tired of flipping over here every now and then and reading the blasting of every single gaff or mistake or stupid comment or crazy position than any mainstream or obscure republican holds, while never commenting on or criticizing stupidity, hate or radicalness from the left. it makes you guys just not seem genuinely concerned about truth in anything but a few social policies that some are obsessed about.>> "A few social policies?" Are you serious? These issues concern EVERYONE in this country except the top 1%, of which I highly doubt you're a part of. This statement of yours, plano, is simply not true: "every single gaff or mistake or stupid comment or crazy position than any mainstream or obscure republican holds" Seriously, this is not a one-off mistake made once on the campaign trail. Romney is deliberately lying every single day on multiple issues that are important to the vast majority of Americans. Romney's current rhetoric on both the stump and in his personally approved ads are deliberately deceitful. Take the one about Obama supposedly eliminating the work requirement for welfare. Obama basically tweaked the program at the request of several governors, including Republicans, so that needed changes could be made at the state level to tailor the welfare program to be more effective. Don't believe me? Read about it on the Washington Post, PolitiFact, and FactCheck.org: <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/spin-and-counterspin-in-the-welfare-debate/2012/08/07/61bf03b6-e0e3-11e1-8fc5-a7dcf1fc161d_blog.html" target="_blank">http://www.washingtonpost.com/...log.html</a> <a href="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/aug/07/mitt-romney/mitt-romney-says-barack-obamas-plan-abandons-tenet/" target="_blank">http://www.politifact.com/trut...s-tenet/</a> <a href="http://www.factcheck.org/2012/08/does-obamas-plan-gut-welfare-reform/" target="_blank">http://www.factcheck.org/2012/...-reform/</a> What about the Romney lie regarding Obama gutting Medicare and how that's going to directly affect senior's pockets? Here's an article from CBS News to refute Romney's claim which he is still making: <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57494197/romneys" target="_blank">http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18.../romneys</a>-$716b-medicare-cut-attack-is-dubious/ (try this one: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/9hpbvyb" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/9hpbvyb</a>) The cuts to Medicare are in the form of reimbursement rate cuts to the providers, not the recipients. Romney is deliberately misleading the public by claiming that the cuts will affect seniors directly in reduced services. And that's simply not true one bit. In fact, my benefits under Medicare have actually increased because of AHCA. I no longer have to pay for my annual wellness physical, mammograms, bone density scans (I have osteoporosis), nor colonoscopies. And the "donut hole" in my drug coverage has been closed as well, thanks to the AHCA. By targeting wasteful spending by the Medicare Advantage providers, the AHCA is able to take those savings and give them back to the Medicare recipients in the form of wellness and preventive health care. Romney is deliberately lying about these savings to make Obama look like a bad meany who wants to throw Grandma under the bus. I'm not going to discuss this 'false equivalency' topic with you, plano, until you can give me a solid truthful answer about why you keep giving a pass to someone like Romney, who keeps deliberately lying over and over and over, and not be bothered by it. <<i just cant handle the idea from people on either side frankly, that their side is pure and virtuous while the other side, or guy, is evil. It's the epitomy of the shallowness and surface thinking that liberals claim to hate.>> I never made any such claim. There is PLENTY about Obama I don't like. I didn't even vote for Obama in our 2008 state primary. He is not progressive enough for me, for one thing. Plus the indefinite detention thing scares the crap outta me. I'd rather have someone with Sen Bernie Sander's ethics and morals in the White House, any day of the week. That being said... voting is always between the lesser of two evils in our nation. Obama does take positions that disturb me. But Romney and especially Ryan disturb me 100 times more. Therefore, Obama will get my vote.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost Personally, I don't thing ANY politician should lie regardless of their religious backgrounds. Today's political parties have created this situation where we have to chose or decide which side mislead, deceived or flat out lied the least. Pretty sad commentary don't you think?
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Mormonism is to Christianity as Christianity is to Judaism. There are some fundamental differences in theology. There is a tradition in Mormonism of "lying for the Lord", stretching back to Joseph Smith himself lying about polygamy. Theological issues that they believe would be unpopular are not talked about honestly, or only in part because they want to introduce the concepts to potential converts slowly so as not to scare them off or raise doubts. There's an interesting article - with citations - at <a href="http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord" target="_blank">http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lyin...the_Lord</a> about this. Read the article, and think about how Romney is almost pathological about telling the people he is addressing what he thinks they want him to hear. He doesn't want to release his taxes because he was raised in this culture where you withhold information that others might find questionable. Understand this about Mormonism, and you understand more about Romney's almost pathological need to tell whatever group he's talking to what they want to hear.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Wow, those are some outright blatant lies and twisting of the truth and attacking right there. Much like Romney, huh guys?! So predictable... Us Mormons just LOVE to lie, deceive, and lie some more.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I have never heard the term "Lying for the Lord" nor have I been taught the concept. Pearls before swine, I have heard.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Us Mormons just LOVE to lie, deceive, and lie some more.<< Maybe you don't, but Mitt Romney sure does.
Originally Posted By fkurucz "Its not about points or who wins arguments" So it's about "truthiness" then? Because you seem utterly unconcerned about using logical fallacies in your arguments.
Originally Posted By fkurucz "How about the obama campaign trying to scare seniors than Romney is going to take away their medicare" You mean the switching Medicare to a voucher program for everyone under 55? I'll give him credit for being smart and leaving current retirees alone. If he went after them there's no way could possibly win. But at the end of the day Mitt Romney is nothing more than a greedy, lying corporate raider who made a career and a fortune out of shafting middle class Americans. That he's the best that the GOP could come up with is simply unbelievable to this disillusioned paleocon.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Us Mormons just LOVE to lie, deceive, and lie some more" You sure do. Worked in Prop 8, but the courts bitch slapped that right out of there. Won't work here, either.
Originally Posted By utahjosh SPP, your blatant lies and distortions are painfully obvious. I could say that the sky is blue, and you might just have to argue that point because it came from the mouth of a filthy Mormon.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Well, on second thought, that was a bit uncalled for. I apologize for losing my temper a bit there.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Wow. Four posts by Josh so far, and not one of them answers the original question. I guess he thinks it's OK for Christian politicians to lie in order to win.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Is it lying? Depends what you definition "of" is is. Oh, and lying is wrong. Now, defining what is or is not a lie gets tricky in politics. It sucks. Everybody does it. EVERYBODY in politics. Doesn't excuse it. Bugs me to death. But when I'm faced with a choice of Romney and his positions and Obama and his, I know Romney gets my vote. I don't think Romney is perfect. Probably has tons of faults and is acting like a presidential candidate.
Originally Posted By fkurucz One would think that if Josh was truly concerned about truthfulness and conservatism that he would throw his support behind Ron Paul. That he supports Romney in what appears to be an unconditional manner leaves me thinking that he supports Romney because he's LDS.
