Originally Posted By ecdc <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/world/asia/afghanistan-civilians-killed-american-soldier-held.html" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03...eld.html</a> You read the headline and think, "Must've been some checkpoint fiasco. Nope. He walked a mile from his base, broke into homes, and shot sixteen people, including nine children. This staff sergeant is obviously deeply troubled and now anti-American sentiment will reach a boiling point. Every war has these stories. It's just so awful.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox According to a recent poll, over 60% of Americans now believe this war is hopeless. It's way past time to bring our troops home. Stay strong, Mr. President, and just do it. Anyone who continues to support war in the Middle East (including bombing Iran and Syria) won't be voting for you, anyway.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Yes, it is time to bring our troops home. I know I am inviting endless criticism by saying this, but then I've always had a big mouth around here... There is only ONE WAY to defuse this very volatile situation and I hope the U.S. takes it. Turn the serviceman over to Afghan authorities for prosecution. This is not a case of "collateral damage" during the heat of battle. This is not a case of a home being misidentified by intelligence as a safe house for terrorists. This is a case of a guy who went out and committed premeditate murder against sixteen innocent civilians. Turning him over to Afghan authorities is not only the decent thing to do; it is what we would expect if the situation were reversed.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck I agree with turning him over, even if they end up boiling him in oil. Thing is, not every serviceman we have is some warrior/patriot out to serve his country. A very small percentage of them are sick, twisted psychopaths, who join up with the express hope of getting to kill people. This individual obviously fits that description, and deserves whatever medieval punishment the locals can devise.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I would say a very small percentage of all walks of humanity are sick, tiwsted psychopaths. Soldiers, scout leaders, teachers, radio hosts...a very sad situation in any event.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of us ever turning over one of our own soldiers to another country. I know it didn't happen with My Lai or Haditha.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Until all of the facts are in, I believe the "sick and twisted" rhetoric needs to be toned down. This soldier was on his fourth tour of duty in the Middle East, so I highly doubt he joined up for the express desire to kill people. Not everyone's brain can effectively metabolize the constant barrage of cortisol that the stress from being in war zones produce. Some researchers believe it's a genetic predisposition, which the military is obviously not equipped to screen for prior to enlistment. But everyone has a breaking point to some degree. It's just that some individuals are predisposed to snap more severely, falling into violent forms of psychosis with an almost total blunting of their true personality and capacity to control their thought processes. This soldier is obviously one such individual. I do not believe most human beings are physically capable of living in a war zone for as long as our soldiers have in the past decade. There should be stricter limits to the total time served in areas like Afghanistan and Iraq. And if war in the Middle East is this bloody important to our nation's security, then reinstate the effn draft and keep these tours of duty much, much shorter.
Originally Posted By barboy Pass, the US handed US Marine Corporal Smith over to Philippine gov't for prosecution and conviction under the "visiting forces agreement"...........after 3 years a Philippine appeals court reversed his conviction in 2009.
Originally Posted By DyGDisney The military is not good at diagnosing, or dealing with, mental health problems. No one should do 4 tours of duty, period. If we would just leave the middle east, bring the soldiers home, we wouldn't have to reinstate the draft. What is the purpose of this continued war?
Originally Posted By Tikiduck Skinner, you are turning the soldier into the victim here. That's like saying poor Mark Chapman just didn't know what he was doing when he murdered John Lennon in cold blood. Do you think the local villagers are going to buy some insanity plea? What this guy did was subhuman, and I don't care if he blew a gasket or what, these people deserve justice in this matter.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>This soldier is obviously one such individual.<< There's a whole lot we don't know about this soldier at the moment. Most mental health experts are shying away from making any statements until more information becomes available.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<There's a whole lot we don't know about this soldier at the moment.>> That is correct. But it's a fairly safe assumption that having been through four different tours of duty, this kind of psychotic behavior would have surfaced sooner, if he had simply enlisted "to kill people."
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Skinner, you are turning the soldier into the victim here.>> That's your interpretation, not mine. I simply stated that going off on the "sick and twisted" justification to treat this soldier like a rabid dog and toss him to the Taliban to be tortured and executed (and you know it will happen if we do) does nothing to actually serve justice. Unless, of course, you feel that all individuals, including the mentally ill and those suffering from temporary psychosis (which is a bona fide medical condition, having witnessed it personally in members of my family suffering from steroid psychosis), should be judged on equal footing. Which is what it sounds like to me. And that, I believe, is unethical if not outright immoral. <<What this guy did was subhuman, and I don't care if he blew a gasket or what, these people deserve justice in this matter.>> So you're advocating serving him up on a platter to the Taliban to be tortured then publicly stoned or hanged? And that will bring back the dead civilians and heal the rift between our nations? All that will do is continue the violence against all Americans, especially the military, in the region. If this country is determined to dig in and remain in the Middle East for the next several decades -- which is precisely what many politicians on both sides of the aisle are advocating -- then handing this Sgt over to the Taliban "to serve justice" is the worst possible decision we could make. Doing that will only make our future presence in the region a hundred times more difficult. This situation is beyond repair at this point. There is no restitution that will appease the Afghan people. We need to just pack up and go home now.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Members of the military are routinely held to a higher standard than the rest of us, and that is the way it SHOULD be. When a person is trained to kill and given the means to do so, he must be held accountable for his actions when he "goes rogue". I certainly would not advocate turning him over to the Taliban... just the Afghan government. Big difference.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox You actually believe there's a difference between the two, RT? You believe the Afghan government wouldn't turn this guy over to the Taliban, if they demanded it (which they would)? The Afghan government is corrupt beyond belief. The Taliban is just another corrupt power entity in the region. And the dividing line between the two is muddy as swamp water. I wouldn't turn the soldier over to either group. And I'd be pulling our other soldiers out ASAP.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Let's change locations. Say the guy had returned to his U.S. base after serving four tours of duty. One night he loses it, goes into the surrounding community and kills 16 people, many of them women and children. Do you treat it solely as a military matter, or do you turn him over to local authorities for detention and prosecution? What he did was TOTALLY outside his role and duty as a member of the U.S. military. He should be treated no differently than a U.S. tourist to Afghanistan would be treated for doing the same thing.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder It's now beng reported that the soldier in question had previously suffered a brain injury and had marital problems. This was his fourth tour of duty in ten years. Three in Iraq and one in Afghanistan.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Understood. So does that make it open season on locals? Again, how would you feel if he had done the same thing in the U.S.? I mean I realize Afghans aren't as worth as much as Americans, but just how far do you want to take that?
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<So does that make it open season on locals?>> Excellent example of overgeneralization, RT. The world should only be seen in black-or-white, all-or-nothing terms, correct? << Again, how would you feel if he had done the same thing in the U.S.?>> The same as I feel now. Treat him as a mentally ill and highly unstable individual who snapped under insurmountable pressures of living in an environment too stressful for his particular physiology/biochemistry to manage. <<I mean I realize Afghans aren't as worth as much as Americans...>> That comment crossed the line and was completely uncalled for. No one here stated anything about Afghan citizens not being "worth as much as Americans." Once again, it's all-or-nothing, black-or-white thinking for you: "If you don't want the soldier turned over to Afghan officials, then you must think that Afghans are lesser human beings." To hell with you, RT. And the Moral Superiority horse you rode in on.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Skinner...I don't always agree with you but I think your measured comments in Post 13 were well stated.
