Originally Posted By RoadTrip The last couple of days I've been wondering why at times I've felt rather weepy about the I-35 bridge disaster even though no one I knew was involved in it. I would like to think that a certain amount of that is empathy for people even when I do not know them. But it is more than that. It is one more time when something I was certain about is not certain anymore. There have been so many instances of that happening in the world lately that is really starts to take an emotional toll. Among my cherished beliefs that have been destroyed… The American mainland will never be attacked. The United States will never start a war. Bridges do not just fall down. And so many, many others... Am I just being rather wimpy today, or do others feel the same at times?
Originally Posted By imadisneygal I feel the same way at times. You're not being wimpy. It's very difficult when things like this happen because there's really no good, logical explanation of why bad things happen to good people. You're in my thoughts...
Originally Posted By barboy "The American mainland will never be attacked." You actually believed that? not me "The United States will never start a war." I thought we were pretty good at that well before Iraq.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 I have a good friend that lives in Deephaven and spends a lot of time of UM - so my first concern was for her to make sure she was OK -- and she was but I hear what you're saying -- the country is a changing -- and very quickly. We are fast losing economic and have already long lost manufacturing advantages we enjoyed. Morals and ethics are legal points, but not everyday words to live by..they have been stretched far beyond boundaries people our age Trippy grew up with. A lot of sense of neighborhood is gone.. although both you and I live in areas where there is some semblance of that - it costs serious coin to try and recover that. The infrastructure is aging and many things that were new when we were younger are in serious need of repairs -- heck the highway system was fairly new when we were young. Couple that with a world that has gotten so much smaller due to technology so very quickly the last 10- 15 years--- Without sounding like an old fogey...this isn't our father's Oldsmobile my friend --
Originally Posted By RoadTrip ^^^ Yes, I think you understand where I'm coming from. Nothing is the same anymore, and I don't think that is just old-fogey speak. The time in U.S. history when we grew up was a glorious time. It was without a doubt better than any era preceding it. It unfortunately also appears to be better than any era that will follow it. I always thought things would keep improving. Now I'm faced with the reality that in all likelihood they will not. It is not a pleasant realization.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>Among my cherished beliefs that have been destroyed… The American mainland will never be attacked.<<< I could be wrong but it seems to me that the mainland has had it's share of attacks. The British didn't stay home during the Revolutionary war or the War of 1812. We have been invaded before but it seems like a lesser degree because it was a couple of wars of slow bullets. >>>The United States will never start a war.<<< History now tells us that even though we didn't necessarily fire the first shot we staged situations that brought the war to us. "Remember the Maine" sunk in Havana harbor starting the Spanish American War is now pretty widely recognized as more intentional then we formerly thought. That story had a spin on it that would make George W. bow in humble recognition. Our involvement in WWII is starting to be recognized as a willful manipulation of events that by our omission lead to our involvement. We may not have officially started them but we sure provoked others into firing the first shot. >>>Bridges do not just fall down.<<< Unfortunately many, many bridges have just fallen down over the past few years. Nothing new there. And so many, many others...<<< Although I see and feel sometimes what you are talking about, all it takes is a little look at history to find out that everything that's old is new again. We, and we have to accept this, have not always worn the White hat. We have been the bad guy many times. Can everybody say...CIA?
Originally Posted By imadisneygal ^^^Can everybody say, "let's say something nice to a fellow human being who is feeling down and uncertain?" instead of picking apart his concerns point by freaking point? Mainland attacked? Happened before.. Starting a war?? We're masters at it!! I think the point was that he is feeling a little disappointed and maybe a little disillusioned. I saw it as a chance to lift up a fellow human being. Not a chance to tell him why he's wrong to feel the way he feels.
Originally Posted By TALL Disney Guy He didn't tell him he was wrong for his feelings, he was simply showing how in world events (no pun intended) history repeats itself, so there can be hope. Thank you for your points, Goofyernmost. I didn't feel you were picking anything apart, I felt you were simply showing how what we feel is newer and "doom and gloom" events we've seen can actually make way for hope. Frankly it makes me feel better and more optimistic knowing these things have happened before. After reading previous posts where the tone is more hopeless for the future, I need something reassuring. So thanks to post 6, it gives me a better feeling that things *can* and---hopefully will---get better again.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy I still have vivid memories of the Sunshine Skyway collapse back when I was only 6 years old. I think 30 or more people were killed in that one. I used to cross it every summer vacation -- still remember the old bridge even though I was very young. These things have happened before and will happen again.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <The time in U.S. history when we grew up was a glorious time. It was without a doubt better than any era preceding it. It unfortunately also appears to be better than any era that will follow it. I always thought things would keep improving. Now I'm faced with the reality that in all likelihood they will not. It is not a pleasant realization. < When we grew up I remember all my parents wanted was for their kids to have it easier than they did - which wasn;t hard since we had very little and both my parents were born to immigrants who then went thru the depression.... As it stands right now my kids will have a tougher time moving past where we are today, or even maintaining...something that concerns my 23 year old very much. She at least went into a profession ( teaching ) that has not yet seen mass off shoring of the jobs, and one of the few careers that still has a pension. Already working on her masters she will eventually look to go into school admin...where there is decent money... He friends that majored in biz / marketing etc.. all starting at less than she is and no defined career paths etc...much more of a crap shoot. Like you Trippy, I remember ( even if it is somewhat selectively) a really different world in the late 50's and 60's --
Originally Posted By gadzuux There's a lyric that I like from a thomas dolby song ... trains collide on a regular basis stars explode and fireworks don't seas run dry and moons leave their orbit and we're on this one thinking it won't Stuff like this happens all the time. Not always the same thing, and not always to "us". But calamities will happen. From what I've been hearing, this bridge wasn't 'too bad' in relation to many other infrastructure problems all around us. And right now our national priorities are skewed. Restoration and maintenance of bridges, dams, levees, plumbing and all manner of infrastructure is being sacrificed so that the money can be redirected into the coffers of the military industrial complex. It wouldn't be surprising if we see more of this sort of thing in the near future.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost Thanks TDG, you are correct in what I was trying to say. I guess my last remark sounded a little harsh but I wasn't directing it at Trippy. Oh, and BTW, so glad to hear from you again Tall. How are things going with you. >>>The time in U.S. history when we grew up was a glorious time. It was without a doubt better than any era preceding it. It unfortunately also appears to be better than any era that will follow it. I always thought things would keep improving. Now I'm faced with the reality that in all likelihood they will not. It is not a pleasant realization.<<< I know it seems like a better time. I grew up in the 50's and 60' and I just have to say that, as children, we were not exposed to as much in the line of bad things. The reason for that was that TV was at its infantsy and they had not yet learned to display the worst humanity has to offer across the airways. Think back a little bit. Think about the Congo, The Korean Police Action (WAR), Gary Powers and the U2 incident, the Cold War, The Cuban Crisis, the startup of the technology of guided missiles with the ability to take out the planet. The assassinations of JFK, RFK, MLK and the almost daily attempts on politicians during that time. The JFK assassination really is what started the TV mentality to show continuous gore. They saw how rivitied everyone was to the TV during that awful Thanksgiving week. Then there was that little thing I like to call the Vietnam Police Action (WAR) that I had the pleasure to be knee deep in. The drug culture, the Civil Rights problems. This almost sounds like a Billy Joel song but I think that we always like to think that everything was rosy back then and the world is going to hell in a hand basket now. Every generation, as adults, were faced with world situations that made them look at the future with despair. We are no exception. The real concern I have is that children are no longer sheltered from the "bad" stuff. We don't want little kids, we want tiny adults. We want to share all our realities with them so they can get in the best pre-schools and become vastly successful executives of the future. Instead we have gotten a bunch of people being held together with pills and therapy. That is our legacy and our own unique problem. All the others have happened before. The preceding was a non-paid rant brought to you by me. It is my hope that you can see that there was no malice in my previous statements, just a reminder that all is not lost yet. We have some big, never before, experiences happening, world terrorism being the biggest, but I think they can be dealt with over time. There are no immediate fixes but it can be done as long as we don't give up and let it take control.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Goofyernmost; I don't have a big problem with what you said, but I think you were being far more literal than I intended. I was speaking of things which had become truths to me during the 55 year period of my existence. During that time the U.S. mainland had never been attacked and I'm sure 90% of us thought it never would. Although TR certainly engaged in some dubious actions at the start of the 20th century, I had never experienced America starting a war and thought I never would. Yes, Viet Nam was a disaster, but we did not initiate that war. The North declared war on the South, and the South requested our assistance. We didn't start it. In the past bridges have fallen down. But not in my experience. Not in my hometown. Not a bridge I've driven over literally thousands of times. So yes, regardless of what the literal truth may be, the truth of my experience said they would never happen. Now they all have. You can point to how society is better than it used to be, and you are correct in many ways. But it seems for every one step forward we've frequently taken two steps back. Poverty is much less prevalent than it used to be. But it is also much more entrenched. Woman can now enter the workplace without discrimination. But frequently today it is not their choice, but they are forced to because many families can't live on one income anymore. The threat of nuclear war is reduced from what it once was. But we still have enough weapons to destroy the world many times over and now plan for the first time to put them in space. We have cleaned our water and our air. But we've also ignored global warming which may make those other advances meaningless. Of course I could go on and on with my examples. Is all lost? No. As usual humans are adaptable and will figure out a way to survive, perhaps even prosper, in spite of these problems. But at this point in my life I cannot look at the future with the same optimism that I did six years ago. I hope that will change. But for today it is my reality.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost RoadTrip, I agree with you, I'm sorry I didn't get that clear while trying to explain myself. I didn't do a good job at all with the first post but I think or thought it was better explained in the second. I agree that it is tough to be optimistic after 9/11 or the shock of a bridge falling especially since you could have been on it. All those types of things tend to point your thought patterns in a negative direction. What the events have really pointed out is that we were wrong in our assumptions that we were not open to attack, have not always behaved in a manner that we thought we did and our engineering has some major flaws and our governments are very good at ignoring the warnings until something catastrophic happens. The reality really never changed, just our acceptance of them. As we get older and more experienced we are able to see that these things are indeed possible and we feel saddened because a lot of what we thought earlier in our lives turned out to be inaccurate. Hence we, and every other generation that preceded us, see as we become the most experienced of the generations out there a feeling that it has all gone bad. Our optimistic outlooks have gone away along with our ability to believe that we can do anything to make it better. You are not wrong in your feelings and it will happen to our children as well. JMHO!
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Nobody is born a pessimist. It is something we learn over time. That is the real issue here. Life in America isn't that much different now then it was then. We are moving in a more frenetic pace, to be sure. But, my mother grew up with air raid drills, the threat of the Cuban Missile Crisis, her peers fighting in Vietnam, political discord, race riots, etc. How much different is it now? Not all that much. But, our perception has changed with age.
Originally Posted By jonvn The thing is that bridges can fall. They are machines. They need to be maintained. We aren't doing that. Instead, we spend our money on some pretty useless stuff. Like "no child left behind." An absolutely pointless program that costs god knows how much. Bridges have collapsed in the past in this country. A couple of big ones, too. The things you take for granted are not always right. People who live here say this is the greatest country in the world all the time. Why? How do they know? Perhaps it is better elsewhere. People just believe what they are told, and don't think for themselves a lot of times. You should question what is said to you, and not take things on face value simply because that's what has been said to you.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad RoadTrip I would like to wax poetic a moment. I've long wanted to tell you a thing or two, but have often witheld my comments. Then I thought I should rather email my opinions in private so as not to embarass myself nor you. Forget it. I'll just say what I have to say. You have posted so many things here on LP, most I agree with, few I don't. That part is not relevant beyond it's brief mention. The point is, I think that your problem is you CARE. You care for your family. You care for your children. You care for your friends. You care about humanity. And not only that, but you are not afraid to put your feelings out there, to state what is on your mind. I have a he11 of a lot of respect, and in a sense, admiration for you Trippy. It's comforting to know that there are still men, MEN like you in this world; men who care. You are a man who really does give a rat's a@@ about his fellow man. Thanks for being an inspiration to me. You've made my day/week/month whatever... by simply saying, "I care!" I wish there were more like ya!
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Now, as to the original post: I think it takes us as humans, a long time to grow into the realization that the world really is NOT a safe, stable, "baseball and apple pie" place to live. I've heard it said that we are who we are based on a handful of defining moments...moments that impact us in a way (positive or negative) as to shape us into who we are. I have given a lot of thought to this and if it is true, then certainly, there is no magic age, once realized, that we never again have any defining moments. Having said that, I believe, that RoadTrip you are currently IN one of those defining moments. They come rarely, and I believe they happen even more seldom as we get older. Just weather the storm friend. This too shall pass. It's too bad that once we reach adulthood, and once we lose our parents, we no longer seem to have anyone that we can go to, who will just smile at us, hug and love us, and look us straight in the eye and say, "Don't be sad little one, everything is going to be Okay." THAT is what I hate most about being an adult, and what I miss most about losing my father at a young age. It's very VERY difficult when you realize, everything just may NOT be okay. But still, we have to press on, and make the most of what Providence gives us to work with.
Originally Posted By jonvn I'm sorry. This is an example of everyone being a victim in this country. I grew up driving up and down the Nimitz freeway in the east bay. In 1989, there was an earthquake, and this double decker freeway collapsed killing over 60 people. At the same time, the Oakland Bay Bridge partially fell, killing one more. Horrible things, but stuff happens.
