Originally Posted By HyperTyper I see Elton John has made the news with his pronouncement that organized religions lack compassion, are responsible for hatred against gays, and he'd ban them all if he could. I'm glad the media is broadcasting his rant, because it illustrates the hypocrisy and juvenile mentality of so many gay activists. John displays the classic signs of bigotry himself. To John, religion is the problem. Ban religion, and the problem goes away. What utter nonsense. He ignores the work many organized religions have done, for millenia, around the globe on behalf of the sick, the poor, the oppressed, and even HIV victims (regardless of how they got the virus). But blaming human cruelty doesn't advance John's agenda (to eliminate religious opposition to sexual liberalism), so he condemns the lot of them. Activists like John are behaving like petulant toddlers, who descend into a meltdown when someone expresses disapproval of their actions. I recall that as a child, when Mom and Dad would tell me I was doing something wrong, I'd run off to my room, bitter and whining something about how they "hated" me. I'm embarrassed to think that, in so doing, I sounded an awful lot like Elton John does now. Such childish behavior comes not from cruelty at the hands of others, but from a desparate yearning for external approval ... a validation that, for whatever reason, is not coming from within. When people have true faith in their choices, and confidence in their personal integrity, the opinions and critiques of others shouldn't matter. Thankfully, I've grown to understand that my parents don't (and never) hated me, even if they did not approve of all my choices and lobbied vigorously against them. My problem wasn't hateful parents. It was my resentment that there was truth to what they were saying. From where comes this notion that, if a religion advises against a behavior, it is spreading hatred? Does Elton John (or anyone on the left) apply that standard to LIBERAL morality? Are environmentalists bigots because they advise us to recycle and avoid using gas? Are vegetarians spreading hate by warning carnivores about the errors of their ways? While many disagree with global warming theorists, who is calling them "hateful" for railing against polluters? Are anti-smoking crusaders, who restrict cigarettes in public places and make smokers puff outside, spreading hatred, cruelty and bigotry by making smokers second-class citizens????? Heck no! I wouldn't waste my time on Elton John's gibberish but that it so perfectly illustrates the manipulations and double-standards of so many on the left (okay, and the right too). Gay activists like Sir Elton want to be free to do whatever, but they want to stifle the speech (and faith) of others, and see nothing wrong with denying children the diversity of mother/father parenthood. They cry for compassion for themselves, but feel free to label others as bigots. Jesse Jackson talks about oppression against blacks, but has uttered his own racial epithets against others. Extremist Muslims moan about oppression at the hands of the West at the same time they oppress their own women. Christians complain that their faith is being excluded, but some 30% say they'd never vote for a Mormon (Mitt Romney) for president becuase Mormons aren't 'Christian enough.' If you want to find a true bigot, look first to those who are screaming "BIGOT!" the loudest. This is a big world, and among the several billion of us, not a single pair will agree on everything. We are going to disapprove of each other's actions and choices. Mr. John had best get used to it. If churches aren't around to disapprove of his life choices, someone else will be. I, for one, am okay with it when someone objects to my behavior. Heck ... he might be right. My own actions have been changed, more than once, by the wisdom of someone who had the courage AND COMPASSION to open their mouth and point-out something I wasn't seeing. I have much more respect for someone who tells me what they think of my choices (good or bad) than someone who may sit and watch me do whatever, and never raise a peep for fear of hurting my "feelings." What we do with others' morality is up to us to accept or reject. But when demonize them simply for having a moral code, and expressing it, we are nourishing and spreading the very bigotry that Elton John and company think they are railing against.
Originally Posted By DlandJB Elton John says stupid things sometimes...he overspends, he overeats. He threatens photographers...he's a cranky old guy. But he is a brilliant songwriter and he has raised millions for AIDS research. I personally don't care what his politics or views on religion are. He's not running for office, he's a performer.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Elton John, by his own admission, often acts like a petulant toddler. I understand his frustration, and he's expressing it in broad strokes, and not very well (there's a reason he has other people write lyrics). However, I don't think he's "demonizing others for having a moral code" so much as criticizing them for wanting others who do not adhere to their religion to be subject to it. Also, phrases like "deny children the diversity of mother/father parenthood," reveal prejudices of your own, as careful as you have been attempting to conceal them. I'm just having the courage and compassion to open my mouth here and point out something you may be missing.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Elton John says stupid things sometimes...he overspends, he overeats. He threatens photographers...he's a cranky old guy. < Remember, the bitch is back is about his own behavior -- obviously he was ticked over something and this comment was very stupid...but then again I also do not get my guideance, pro or con, from celebrities.....although sometimes they would be better off thinking before they speak since some people really do listen to what they say.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> ... but from a desparate yearning for external approval ... a validation that, for whatever reason, is not coming from within. << This could easily pass as a description for fervently religious poeple, too. >> From where comes this notion that, if a religion advises against a behavior, it is spreading hatred? << A delicately structured question designed to deflect away from the facts. Homosexuality isn't a "behavior" so much as it is an intrinsic orientation. Easy for you to say that "this behavior" is immoral, evil, a sin, an affront. No skin off your nose, huh? It's just tough luck for anyone who might have a different set of wiring than you do. No salvation for them. >> I wouldn't waste my time on Elton John's gibberish but that it so perfectly illustrates the manipulations and double-standards of so many on the left (okay, and the right too). << You're right in that it's an irresponsible statement, so consider the source - an aging over-indulged celebrity with a history of shooting his mouth off. >> But when demonize them simply for having a moral code, and expressing it, we are nourishing and spreading the very bigotry that Elton John and company think they are railing against. << Who's zooming who here? If you're seriously worried about gays "demonizing" christians, you've got it all wrong. Christians take a back seat to nobody when it comes to demonizing, and have been the single most oppresive force against basic equality for gays and lesbians - ever. Bar none. It goes back to the seventies with anita bryant, and has continued unabated ever since. Their efforts have been to actively seek restrictions over gays in fair housing, employment, and basic equality. In the process they've also been able to reap literally millions by scapegoating gays as some kind of modern day boogymen they can scare people with. And yet you seem surprised that gay people may feel some resentment in return.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad I have not missed an Elton John concert in Atlanta for six years now. I don't really care about his personal views and I doubt he cares about mine.
Originally Posted By DlandJB ^^ Ditto -- except I've only been able to see him once in concert and it was wonderful.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Best performer ever.... He really really enjoys performing and gives a good audience a great show. I just went to Styx and Foreigner in Atlanta recently and they were great too. Different but great. Foreigner opened for Styx and althought Styx was without Dennis DeYoung, they had the others and were awesome. Elton was about ten times better at a concert a couple years ago he did in the Philips Arena, that was simply him and one grand concert piano for three hours.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad The best concert I ever went to was a few years back when Elton and Billy Joel performed together, on the same stage. They goofed off, had a impromtu paino duel (which incredibly I give the edge to Billy Joel) and we were totally floored, exhausted, satisfied, and amazed with that one.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom As far as I'm concerned Elton John pays taxes. Organized religion doesn't.
Originally Posted By debtee <The best concert I ever went to was a few years back when Elton and Billy Joel performed together, on the same stage. They goofed off, had a impromtu paino duel (which incredibly I give the edge to Billy Joel) and we were totally floored, exhausted, satisfied, and amazed with that one.> ^ I also had a similar experience with these guys when they were in Sydney, could have been the same world tour and it was fab! I just like music and don't listen to celebs view on politics, as they must not listen to what comes out of their own mouth sometimes! lol
Originally Posted By ecdc "He ignores the work many organized religions have done, for millenia, around the globe on behalf of the sick, the poor, the oppressed, and even HIV victims (regardless of how they got the virus). But blaming human cruelty doesn't advance John's agenda (to eliminate religious opposition to sexual liberalism), so he condemns the lot of them." This shows a deeply flawed approach to your whole thesis, Hyper. The very fact that you label homosexuality "sexual liberalism" demonstrates that you come from such a problematic perspective that it invalidates most of your comments about Elton John. And until the 19th-20th centuries, religion did far more harm to humans than it did good. It wasn't that long ago that the sick were treated by Christianity as if they deserved their illness as a punishment from God. "Such childish behavior comes not from cruelty at the hands of others, but from a desparate yearning for external approval ... a validation that, for whatever reason, is not coming from within. When people have true faith in their choices, and confidence in their personal integrity, the opinions and critiques of others shouldn't matter." Give me an "I", Give me an "R", Give me an "O", give me an "N", give me a "Y" - what's it spell? Irony! To say "when people have true faith in their choices and confidence in their personal integrity" is hypocrisy in the extreme from Christians who are clearly insecure about their own beliefs and would seek to legislate others into going along with them. If Christians truly are confident (and many are) then there is no reason to quite literally force others to think as they do through laws. I can't think of any other petulant toddlers like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, or since you use the Mormon example of Mitt Romney above, Mormon leader Boyd Packer, who has uttered some of the most offensive comments regarding homosexuality. "From where comes this notion that, if a religion advises against a behavior, it is spreading hatred?" If that "behavior" is a person's inherent lifestyle, then yes it is. The fact that you seem to consider homosexuality merely a brief sex act entirely devoid of any other context reveals your deep ignorance on the subject. Many gay people will tell you they knew they were different at a very young age and understood then that the way the world was being presented to them was not squaring with their internal feelings. They knew this at ages as young as 5 or 6, long before they actually knew about physical sex. One might have said in the past, "if a religion advises against a particular skin color, is it spreading hatred?" Well, it was then, and it is now. Christians love to preach "love the sinner hate the sin," but they rarely put it into practice. "But when demonize them simply for having a moral code, and expressing it, we are nourishing and spreading the very bigotry that Elton John and company think they are railing against." Yet again, you start with your worldview and refuse to acknowledge any beyond it. Having a "moral code" means nothing when competing and even conflicting moral codes exist. For example, I have a moral code that accepts gays and believes they should marry; I consider that a moral position to have. You would disagree; but it doesn't mean I don't have a "moral code". Indeed, someone's "moral code" can be among their most dangerous beliefs, because they tend to be far more inflexible about a "moral code" than a mere opinion or belief. Certainly plenty of radical Muslims' "moral code" calls for the killing of Americans in the name of Allah. In short, it's worthless to defend oneself by saying "Hey, it's my moral code - how dare you judge me for it!" We can and should criticize others so-called "moral codes".
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Christians take a back seat to nobody when it comes to demonizing, and have been the single most oppresive force against basic equality for gays and lesbians - ever. Bar none. > While most of your post was a fine response to the OP, gadzuux, (as was ecdc's), I'd just like to point out that a). even the religious right in this country has nothing on certain religions elsewhere when it comes to oppression of gay people (very much including Islamists); and b). many Christians here, and indeed entire denominations (including my own) are actively working FOR equality for gay people in employment, housing, marriage, etc. Yes, it's a liberal denomination and it's often criticized by those on the right - just like we were when we supported abolition, women's suffrage, the right to unionize, child labor laws, an end to segregation, etc., while those right-wing congregations fought them all the way. Funny - we were right about all those things and that's accepted now. I believe the same will be the case here eventually.
Originally Posted By peeaanuut I totally agree with John that Organized Religion is the seedy underbelly of the world. They pass judgement based on financial and political gain/power. They are nothing but a bunch of conrol freeks that want to brainwash the rest of the world. Organized religion is simply disgusting.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<To John, religion is the problem.>> OH! You mean Elton. Lennon beat him to that expression by several years. Not that a healthy non-believing perspective is just a modern thing. Hello. Non-believing has existed as long as religion has.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Styx was without Dennis DeYoung, they had the others and were awesome< Styx is from my neighborhood on the south side of Chicago ( except Tommy Shaw who joined later) - I grew up watching them play in garages and local establishments ( and my senior prom ) - when they were called TW4 - and changed their name to Styx 2 weeks before my senior prom. Everyone in the neighborhood 'knew' them as they were very personable - save one. I prefer them w/o Dennis...more rock, less fluff and less attitude. just his one person's opinion after 35 + years of watching them. btw - side note- exact same neighborhood and high school that also produced Ray Manzarek of the Doors, who played a benefit last year for the 100th anniversary of the high school ( along with the Doors of the21st century or whatever the lawyers are making them call themselves today.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad WOW !!! <<<btw - side note- exact same neighborhood and high school that also produced Ray Manzarek of the Doors, who played a benefit last year for the 100th anniversary of the high school>>> That is awsome vbdad! <<<I prefer them w/o Dennis...more rock, less fluff and less attitude.>>> I understand what you are saying here, and I have mixed emotions about it. I mean Styx without DeYoung couldn't play ANY of the Paradise Theater stuff, which I love, nor Mr Roboto which I hate. From what I found on the net, DeYoung is currently touring in Canada, or was a few months ago, calling his concert, Dennis DeYoung-The Music Of Styx and playing ONLY Paradise Theater stuff. Seems the group has slpit and split the rights to varioius music up among themselves as well. BTW At this concert in Atlanta a couple months ago, I SWEAR Tommy Shaw looked about 19 years old from where I was sitting and I wasn't that far away!!! Rock on!
Originally Posted By vbdad55 btw - there was an excellent interview with Elton John on BRAVO earlier today, part of the Inside the Actors Studio series which is always excellent as James Lipton is an intellgent interviewer. If they replay it I say catch it as it was honest and informative as this series always is. A few weeks ago they had Pacino ( who attended the Actors Studio 40 + years ago on- also an excellent interview ) - If you want to get insight into Elton John, this show does it well. The comment was not the smartest, but the interview will also show from his recollections how much religion meant to him in his childhood and beyond, and maybe a window into why he is so angry now. <a href="http://www.tv.com/inside-the-actors-studio/show/1931/summary.html?tag=tabs;summary" target="_blank">http://www.tv.com/inside-the-a ctors-studio/show/1931/summary.html?tag=tabs;summary</a>
