Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt >>State Attorney General Jerry Brown, in a surprise turnabout, asked the California Supreme Court on Friday to overturn Proposition 8, saying the voter-approved ban on same-sex marriage violates basic rights guaranteed in the state Constitution. Brown, who is required to defend state laws unless he cannot find reasonable legal grounds to do so, said after Prop. 8 passed Nov. 4 that he would support the initiative before the state's high court. But in a lengthy filing late Friday, he argued that the constitutional amendment was "inconsistent with the guarantees of individual liberty" in California's governing charter. "Proposition 8 must be invalidated because the amendment process cannot be used to extinguish fundamental constitutional rights without compelling justification," Brown said.<< Full article here: <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/12/20/MN6514RNVU.DTL" target="_blank">http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...RNVU.DTL</a>
Originally Posted By utahjosh It just seems to me that our culture is moving in a direction to allow gay marriage. Our society is becoming more and more open to things that were once considered wrong. I think it's easy to see.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf I think we all knew Prop 8 wasn't going to stand for very long, which makes the effort to fight for it all the more perplexing. It's as if the religions involved simply wanted to go on record as being anti-gay. It seems like a lot of wasted time and money to state the obvious though.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <"Proposition 8 must be invalidated because the amendment process cannot be used to extinguish fundamental constitutional rights without compelling justification," Brown said.> And that's exactly the right way to look at it.
Originally Posted By gadzuux As I said on another thread (that is withering and sinking lower as I type this) - hat's off to jerry brown for doing the right thing. But - how could he have done anything else? The idea of instituting discrimination for a class of california citizens is bad enough, but to actually invalidate the 18,000 legal marriages (contracts) would be the height or irresponsible arrogance. Perfect for ken starr. There's no way Jerry Brown would participate in any part of that. It would be an affront to his personal integrity. His only remaining option was to do exactly what he's done - petition the state supreme court to invalidate prop 8.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Here. <a href="http://mb.laughingplace.com/MsgBoard-T-102640-P-1.asp" target="_blank">http://mb.laughingplace.com/Ms...-P-1.asp</a>
Originally Posted By Mr X ***It just seems to me that our culture is moving in a direction to allow gay marriage. Our society is becoming more and more open to things that were once considered wrong.*** Yup...like the freedom of black folks, or the ability for women to own property. Certainly two things that in the past were considered very wrong!
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Why do I want to throw up every time former polygamists lecture us on morality?
Originally Posted By Mr X Because it's amazingly hypocritical, and reminds us all of the glass houses concept?
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Our society is becoming more and more open to things that were once considered wrong. I think it's easy to see.<< Yeah, stuff like labor rules, desegregation, interracial marriage, women voting, etc. Stuff that was once considered wrong is now ok, because society realizes that these things are actually good, and that equality for one is equality for all.
Originally Posted By ADMIN <font color="#FF0000">Message removed by an administrator. <a href="MsgBoard-Rules.asp" target="_blank">Click here</a> for the LaughingPlace.com Community Standards.</font>
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Yeah, stuff like labor rules, desegregation, interracial marriage, women voting, etc.> Nope, that's good stuff. I'm talking about sex outside of marriage, language in society and on television, rampant pornography, crude and off-color humor being the #1 choice for comics and sitcoms, unmarried teenage pregnancies, fathers leaving their families, abortions, etc. Our society is becoming more and more "accepting," all right.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan What a dark, sinful world it is. So it's important to not allow loving gay couples to enter into stable, monogamous marriages because that would "harm marriage" so much more than all those other things you mention. In other words, 1+1=9.
Originally Posted By utahjosh They are connected to me, Kar2oonMan. I believe homosexual sex to be a sin. I know that offends many of you, but that doesn't change my belief. It also doesn't make me hate gay people, as much as you think it does.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I'm talking about sex outside of marriage, language in society and on television, rampant pornography, crude and off-color humor being the #1 choice for comics and sitcoms, unmarried teenage pregnancies, fathers leaving their families, abortions, etc. Our society is becoming more and more "accepting," all right.<< Let's break these down Josh and see just how meaningless most of them really are. >>Sex outside of marriage.<< Can you demonstrate why that's a bad thing? How is society harmed by sex outside of marriage? >>Language in society and on television...crude and off-color humor being the #1 choice for comics and sitcoms>> Is there anything less eternal than language? We can trace language's roots, how it developed, how curse words developed, etc. There are whole areas of study on this, and most experts agree that profanity is actually a good thing for social expression and society. But since when have the religious ever bothered to worry about what experts say? They have their own experts in the form of old white men. Of course, if one takes the narrow view that God's only about 200 years old and objects to a string of consonants and vowels in the English language, they have a pretty silly notion of God. >>fathers leaving their families<< Do you have statistics for this? How exactly are fathers abandoning families? I agree divorce is a problem. But divorce is a problem that transcends religion, Josh. Mormon divorce rates are the same as national divorce rates, and contrary to popular belief, that includes temple marriages. One could certainly argue that religion exacerbates the divorce problem with younger people getting married, and setting unrealistic expectations of what marriage actually is and why it's important. Furthermore, sometimes it's an unfortunate necessity. Unless you believe children are better off being raised by two people who despise each other. BTW, I have two different friends in two different wards Josh whose wives were counseled by their bishops to leave their husbands because their husbands no longer believed in Mormonism. Fortunately, for both women it was a wake up call for just how absurd Mormonism can be, and although they're still active, they now have better relationships with their husbands. >>rampant pornography<< Again, can you demonstrate why this is a problem? There are of course real issues with the industry - drug use, exploitation of women, etc. But can you point to an inherent problem, aside from the phantom "addiction," most experts agree doesn't exist, with pornography? Human beings are biologically wired for sex and attraction, Josh. It's what perpetuates our species. Yet over the years religion has miraculously made the most natural things about humans, their sexuality, into something supposedly unnatural, and the most unnatural thing about our species, violence and killing each other, into a perfectly acceptable practice. >>unmarried teenage pregnancies...abortions<< And this is an issue that has had enough study that we know religion and America's puritanical attitude directly contributes to the problem, Josh. In Europe, teen sexuality and sex rates is identical to the United States. However, their sex ed and access to birth control is much better, so their teen pregnancy rates are significantly lower, and their abortion rates are lower among teens because of this. By way of example, my Mormon cousin's girlfriend became pregnant while both were in high school. It was their first time having sex and they just "didn't mean to" in the back of a car. Because they had not been taught about birth control as a viable option, they didn't have any. The only option for them was abstinence, a completely unrealistic expectation. Sorry Josh, in this case, religion is the problem, not the solution. As for abortion, none of us likes it or wants it. But some of us are mature and intelligent enough to realize it's a necessary part of our culture. Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare. Abortions had gone down year after year - until George W. Bush took office and abstinence only programs began to take root. Having safe abortions in the first trimester is much better than back-alley abortions. Josh, your list is largely one of religious superstition. There are real issues in our society that we all, religious or not, agree are issues we should try and improve on. Only the most naive believe that we somehow like or want abortion, divorce, and teen pregnancy. What we want is realistic education and acceptance to help decrease each of these things. Religion is absolutely not the way to do that.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<They are connected to me, Kar2oonMan>> No they're not. Just because you think something is a sin doesn't give you the right to force that belief on someone else. This is America, not "UtahJosh-land".
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I believe homosexual sex to be a sin.<< So don't have homosexual sex. Problem solved!
