Originally Posted By ecdc I just finished watching this week's episode of Bill Maher, and he touched on a subject near and dear to my heart - hating the French. I wish the transcript were up yet (I'll post it when it is) but Maher rightly mocked politicians who roll their eyes when someone mentions France. As Maher satirized, what's our excuse - we don't like them for not supporting our iron-clad, brilliantly conceived, flawlessly executed War in Iraq? I'm curious what people think: Why this strange hatred or dislike some Americans have of the French? Maher claims 85% of the French voted in the last election, something we can't even do if it's for American Idol. He argued strenuously that their health care system is the best in the world (certainly debatable, and something I know next to nothing about, but interesting nonetheless) and that we should copy it. Why the dislike of a country I suspect most Americans know next to nothing about?
Originally Posted By planodisney Have you ever been to Paris? Have you ever experienced their utter disdain for American culture? Have you seen polls that show how they feel about Americans? I HAVE!!!!
Originally Posted By ecdc I haven't been to Paris, but my dad travels there for business and pleasure frequently. He (a Republican, might I add) tells me the anti-American sentiment is greatly exaggerated. He (among others) also say that any attempt, even weak, at speaking French instead of assuming they speak English, melts away most French rudeness towards Americans. These are of course antecdotal reports, and others may have similar or different stories. But the real issue is why we dislike the French. Frankly, I don't blame them for not loving America all that much (freedom fries, seriously?) What have we given them lately to appreciate us for? Instead, why do some Americans hate France? Do they really hate our culure, as you suggest, or is it our government?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Why do Americans (and English) hate the French? Historical rivallry: Norman Conquest of England in 1066 Many pre Revolutionary conflicts Napoleonic Wars French Indian Wars War of 1812 French support of the Confederacy French support of the Spain in the Spanish American War Attrition from the post war period (WW1 and WW2) Vietnam being caused by poor management of the decolonization process Also, the Anti-American policy of the American Film Industry that ensures <40% of movies in France come from foreign countries, and >10% must be dubbed. And so on. I have a number of French friends, and have spent a great deal of time in France over the last 21 years, but there are centuries of hostile emotions, and a number of WASPs are of British origin.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Why the dislike of a country I suspect most Americans know next to nothing about? >>> Because for many people, that's what their radios told them to think.
Originally Posted By barboy "85% of the French voted in the last election" So what??? Whether 3% voted or even 97%--what does that have to do with anything? "health care system is the best in the world" Again, so what. Attitudes toward France and French people should be based on how France treats people, not whether they have the highest or lowest infant mortality rate, GDP, or even the prettiest countryside.
Originally Posted By barboy "Have you seen polls that show how they feel about Americans?" But those French do dig on Ben Franklin, (presumably John Wayne and Clint Eastwood), and Night Rider/ Bay Watch's David Hasselhoff.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Maybe they'll buy Hasselhhoff a nice french wine that goes with hamburger.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom France also seems to undermine the US in just about any attempt they have. For example, France's irresoncible behavior in supporting Iran in Iran's quest to obtain nuclear weapons. What does France get out of this "oil". France likes to promote themsevles as Earthy Crunch but refuses to take responcibility for testing nuclear bombs in Tahati <<France has an official position of denying culpability in the incredible death toll in Tahiti and elsewhere in what's called French Polynesia from their nuclear testing program. There are some very good videos on this. One is called Hotupainu, which means "rotten fruit." It was made by a Maori filmmaker. I don't know how available it is, but it's superb. The French, in denying that this poisoning is taking place, have allowed the New Zealand community, and of course New Zealand is anti-nuclear, to take up the issue. Both the Maori and the Pakeha, the white people in New Zealand, have done that. Another good film is "Tahiti Witness," which is about the same poisoning that I'm describing here.>> France has allowed Paris to be the safe haven for just about every nut case dictator in the world. No matter what the death toll these dictators have left in their wake, they always seem to be welcome in Paris with open arms.
Originally Posted By jonvn I was talking to a guy from England once, and he said that the worst thing about the Iraq war was that it made it so that the French were right about something. That's the absolute worst of it.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>So what??? Whether 3% voted or even 97%--what does that have to do with anything?<< It has quite a bit to do with it, actually. In my mind it means that we should admire the French for their involvement in civics and for taking their Democracy more seriously than we do. >>Attitudes toward France and French people should be based on how France treats people, not whether they have the highest or lowest infant mortality rate, GDP, or even the prettiest countryside.<< That's absurd, and it's what's led to this notion that "damn the evidence, America's the greatest country in the world 'cause we say it is!" We could learn from other countries, but instead, we treat being the greatest as if it were some immutable fact that fell from heaven. Further, if we're judging countries on how they treat people, how about the U.S. How do we treat our Mexican immigrants, both legal and illegal? How do we treat our poor and homeless? How do we treat those without healthcare? How do we treat those people we were so quick to label heroes after 9/11 - firefighters, cops, teachers, etc? We treat them with low pay and poor benefits, that's how. What about our own soldiers? Say anything bad about the soldiers, you might as well move to Iran as far as most Americans are concerned. But the proof is in our actions, not in our words. Many soldiers can't survive without food stamps. We send them off to die with inadequate armor because we don't want to pay for vehicles that will protect them. So, what was that you were saying again about how we should judge based on how people are treated?
Originally Posted By ecdc I'll add, I'm certainly not calling the French perfect or suggesting we model ourselves after everything about them. They have plenty of problems to. There's been some good points and good posts brought up. I'm simply addressing this notion of why we're supposed to automatically despise the French just because we're American, and when it's perpetuated by people who seem to know nothing about the country, its history, or its culture.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj I've visited France several times, and never once experienced any anti-American sentiment. In fact, if you ever have a chance to tour the coast of Normandy, I think you'll find that there are still a great many warm feelings for America since the liberation of France in WWII. I met a lot of nice people in Paris and on the Mediterranean coast. Paris is one of the cleanest cities I have ever visited during my world travels. I'd love to go back. I don't think France has everything perfect, but they are doing a far better job of upholding the principles of the American Revolution and a democratic republic than we are today. There are so many things written in our Constitution that are being outright ignored by our government leaders today, I sometimes wonder how we even come to think that document even defines our government anymore. The United States is no longer an example to world with respect to our governmental principles. All we have left is a bloated economy that nations around the world cater to in order to pick up the table scraps. It will be interesting to see how the world responds when our government goes bankrupt and the economy is in shambles. I expect most nations will move to the next dining table and try to pick up their scraps elsewhere. I wouldn't be surprised to see France leading the free world under those circumstances.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh The fact is that France has almost always acted in France's interest, and not in the interest of what is best for most of the people of the Earth. It wasn't because of some enlightened principle or greater knowledge that they failed to support our efforts against Saddam. They could be a great country, but they won't. And that's why some people here don't respect them.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh And the idea that the economy of the US is going to tank, and France's to rise is preposterous. Luckily it looks like the people of France have decided to elect a free-marketer rather than a socialist, but they've got a long way to go before they can even compete with our standard of living or economic growth. France is facing serious problems with an aging population and high unemployment. They've created too many entitlements for the population to support.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj Maybe France understood that it wasn't in their best interest, or most of the people on Earth, to go to war in Iraq. Of course, here we have a branch of government that makes decisions based on what's in Halliburton or ExxonMobil's best interest, so it doesn't really matter how these sorts of things impact our own citizens or the global community.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj << France is facing serious problems with an aging population and high unemployment. They've created too many entitlements for the population to support. >> Well, we have an aging population and an entitlement time bomb, so I guess we're in the same club. I guess we have low unemployment, but when you consider that all those jobs are leaning towards the side of discount store cashiers and burger flippers I'm not sure that we wouldn't be better off to just have a lot of unemployed people out there. The employment figures released this week sure didn't paint a very positive picture on the quality of jobs being created in the U.S. economy vs. those that are being lost.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Maybe France understood that it wasn't in their best interest, or most of the people on Earth, to go to war in Iraq.> And yet they voted to tell Iraq to stop doing things, while at the same time undermining the things that were supposed to pressure Iraq to stop doing those things. The only interest that served was France's.
