Originally Posted By Mr X I plan to start a series. Here's the first idiotic in the extreme rant... <a href="http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=333933006516877" target="_blank">http://www.ibdeditorials.com/I...06516877</a> The topic? THEY'RE GOING TO KILL YOUR GRANDMA! The idiocy (beyond kill Grandma, I mean)... ***The U.K.'s National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) basically figures out who deserves treatment by using a cost-utility analysis based on the "quality adjusted life year." One year in perfect health gets you one point. Deductions are taken for blindness, for being in a wheelchair and so on. The more points you have, the more your life is considered worth saving, and the likelier you are to get care. People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.*** Hey you worthless moron idiots and that's all I can say without pissing Doobie off even though I'd really, REALLY love to say far worse... He's a U.K. citizen, you idiots. And he's somehow still alive. Where did you morons think he was from, anyway? Why would you chose him as your "example" of people who would be killed off by evil Obama? Why are you so very, very dumb?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder World News Tonight with Charlie Gibson started a Fact Check series last night on the incredible distortions that the GOP has put forth regarding health care reform. They began with the "Death Panels" that Palin has propagated, and how the flock refuses to believe the real explanations, i.e. there is no such thing of course. It's the absolute wrong response certainly, but it really makes you think the only retort back to the Palins, Limbaughs, all the radio a-holes, is to simply smash them in the mouth, over and over. Tat way they couldn't spread these lies any more. Son after, take a hammer to their fingers to make sure they couldn't worka keyboard and spread lies that way. When you consider the violence they're advocating at these town halls, my idea isn't that much of a stretch. Truly, this is the most dishonest I've seen the GOP in "discourse" in many a year.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Why are you so very, very dumb?>> Don't get me started on the severe lack of teaching critical thinking skills in this country. Critical thinking has been systematically removed from our pedagogy over the past several decades, with the obvious intended goal of keeping the general populace complacent by keeping them ignorant. Ignorant adults are easier to hoodwink into mediocre jobs and mediocre consumer choices. Ignorant voters are easier to hoodwink into voting against their own best interests. Double win for the corporations, who've been slowly destroying the American middle class by shipping jobs overseas, hiring undocumented workers under the table, and giving most of their political contributions to the GOP. (Yes, they also give to the DNC, but disproportionally much less.) The folks we're witnessing at these town halls do not possess critical thinking skills, period. It doesn't take a rocket scientist like Dr. Hawking to figure out that Medicare already is a government-run health care program, or that a private industry bureaucrat already stands between you and your doctor. When you get right down to it, the "death panel" concept is already in place, in the private health care sector. Life and death treatment decisions are being made every single day by health insurance and HMO bureaucrats, who literally decide who gets what treatment, how much they're willing to pay, and for how long. But the crazies on the right who cannot think for themselves refuse to acknowledge these simple irrefutable facts. As a country moving forward, we are in trouble. BIG trouble. Too much of our populace is ignorant and incapable of thinking for themselves, and that's precisely the kind of social weakness that fascists love to exploit. I could easily see another Nazi Germany forming on our soil in the not-so-distant future.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Critical thinking has been systematically removed from our pedagogy over the past several decades, with the obvious intended goal of keeping the general populace complacent by keeping them ignorant.<< >>As a country moving forward, we are in trouble. BIG trouble. Too much of our populace is ignorant and incapable of thinking for themselves, and that's precisely the kind of social weakness that fascists love to exploit. I could easily see another Nazi Germany forming on our soil in the not-so-distant future.<< True, dat. I've been saying it since before the election, but you said it better (and shorter). Let me put the following out there for the panel to discuss. Let's suppose the wingnuts do get their very own Fueherer and try to "take back their country" by force. Are there enough of them that we really should be worried? Whether there are or not, how far should the government go to suppress them? Localized martial law? Nationwide martial law? Banning and/or jailing the leaders of the movement? (including Limbaugh, Beck, etc.) Civil war? How DOES one deal with treasonous wingnuts who cannot be reasoned with and who will fight to the death for their lunacy?
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 Good thing they don't deduct points for hyperbole, otherwise Mr. X would be the first to be on the chopping block.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Gitmo could sort these "terrorists" out, then we can see if their insurance will pay for the care after the waterboarding! ;-)
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless. >>> I'm trying to figure out what the writer's point is. Specifically, wasn't Stephen Hawking born and raised in, and currently a resident of, the UK? Looking quickly at his biography, he's apparently always lived in the UK. So, this would appear not only to not support the point the author is trying to make, but appears to make exactly the opposite argument.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Don't get me started on the severe lack of teaching critical thinking skills in this country.<< Or me. skinner just posted one of the best posts seen 'round these parts. The older I get and observe American politics, ideology, education, etc., I become convinced that people are just not taking Reason and Logic 101. The critical thinking skills of most Americans is altogether absent. It's truly remarkable (and depressing). Here's some examples you see routinely in this country: Global warming isn't a problem because it was cold yesterday Healthcare reform is bad because I know a Canadian who waited two weeks to see a doctor Homeless people are just lazy because I have a job and I'm not homeless More Hispanics and African Americans commit crimes, therefore they are naturally more inclined to do so On and on it goes. Don't even get me on religion and how it intertwines with all this. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it: Americans seem to operate under the assumption that "I believe it, therefore it's true." I'm astounded at how uninterested people are in learning and education. If it just "sounds right," that's good enough. I've long since gone from seeing Stephen Colbert's declaration about "truthiness" as a funny bit on a comedy show to seeing it as an eerily apt and succinct summary of how Americans make decisions and form opinions.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>The critical thinking skills of most Americans is altogether absent. It's truly remarkable (and depressing).<< What I find truly remarkable and depressing is how many of them are actually proud of this.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<What I find truly remarkable and depressing is how many of them are actually proud of this.>> Well, when they have "leaders" they can point to who are just as ignorant and stupid, what do you expect? I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd prefer my leaders to be smarter than me - not dumber. Or at least let them be willing to listen to people who are smarter than they are!
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Well, when they have "leaders" they can point to who are just as ignorant and stupid, what do you expect?<< I don't think most of them are ignorant and stupid. I believe that in most cases it's an act, deliberately designed to appeal to the gullible ignoramuses and thus gain power/ratings/money/whatever. Except for Sarah Palin. Nobody could possibly invent Sarah Palin.
Originally Posted By gadzuux Idiotic Right Wing Editorial #2 - <a href="http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/11/recycling-the-contempt-from-protests-past/?feat=home_headlines" target="_blank">http://washingtontimes.com/new...eadlines</a> (If you follow the link, please note the flashing banner ad at the top of the page that says "Are you attending a town hall on health care? Send us your video!) Recycling The Contempt Wesley Pruden | Tuesday, August 11, 2009 Washington Times - Editor Emeritus [excerpts] >> Recycling is so popular that even our congressmen, unaccustomed as they are to practicing what they preach, do it. They're reaching back into the dark past to recycle contempt. Never waste a crisis, even if you have to manufacture the crisis. Democrats from the cosseted life in the House and Senate, accustomed to getting the deference at home so often denied in Washington, are suddenly having to deal with inconvenient old folks at home. President Obama insists that the War on Terror is over, ended by his ultimate weapon, the Apology Bomb. But to listen to delicate congressmen whose feelings are hurt, al Qaeda has merely moved terror operations to their congressional districts. Angry lynch mobs (to hear House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and her sidekick Steny Hoyer tell it) of elderly gents on walking sticks and little blue-haired ladies in their 80s have descended on congressmen at town meetings across the country. The frightened Democratic reaction to robust debate - "the conversation" that "progressives" are so eager to have with those who disagree with them - recycles the insults and epithets last heard in confrontations over civil rights and the war in Vietnam. The protests are "organized," the work of "outside agitators." Martin Luther King, by Democratic reckoning, was an outside agitator. The marches against the Vietnam war were marvels of organization, true, but ... umm, well ... that was different. Mr. Obama should recognize outside agitation when he sees it, given his career in outside agitation in Chicago. We're almost there. The Democrats are trying to impose rationed government health care quickly, before the public wakes up from entertaining distractions, making villains of all who oppose and creating a chaotic controversy that can be effectively exploited. But the president and his congressional accomplices forgot that timing is everything. The majority can smell government medicine and the confiscatory taxes on the way. The president further miscalculated when he agreed to the insertion of a scheme, hidden in the thousand pages of the House legislation, to "offer" counseling to the aged about how they want to die. Nothing there about the "how" and "when." That comes later. When he confronts mortality, a man is suspicious of boodlers with smooth tongues. Roger Fakes, 70, a retired businessman, showed up at the Memphis "town hall" in neither Brown Shirt nor swastika (he's actually a Presbyterian elder). His congressman's insistence that Obamacare would not disturb his private insurance moved him to his feet with polite but pointed questions and observations: "There are some of us old gray-haired folks who don't want the government involved in any of our business." And not just the gray-haired folks. Congressmen are learning the hard way they sometimes have to listen, like it or not. << So here's an example of a supposedly august source - the "Editor Emeritus" of a DC major daily - deliberately endorsing the notion of an Obama "death panel". He even refers to it as a "hidden scheme" inserted personally by President Obama. It's fair to assume that the author already knows that none of this is true, and that the phrase in question was placed by a republican representative. He speaks of "contempt" on the part of the democratic party in trying to expand health care for all citizens. He doesn't mention the "contempt" from the republican party in extolling flat out lies in an effort to scare the ignorant and foolish. The author says that Obama "insists the war on terror is over", conveniently ignoring that the president has never said any such thing. Instead, he goes for a snarky joke about Obama's "ultimate weapon, the Apology Bomb". Just who does this editor emeritus think he's fooling? And doesn't an editor of a major daily have an obligation to not publish things that are not only factually incorrect but completely made up out of whole cloth? He refers to the democrats as "frightened" when any fool can see that the scare tactics are aimed at foolish republicans. He compares these town hall disrupters to Martin Luther King, with no apparent sense of irony. He accuses dems of "creating a chaotic controversy that can be effectively exploited". Textbook Rovian politics - accuse your opposition of exactly the tactics you're using. Deeply cynical. He ends by re-invoking these kindly "old grey haired folks" who don't want the government involved in their health care. The same old folks who have a medicare card in their wallets. Republicans lie to us. Every day. With Out Fail. Big whopping stinkers of lies too. This is deliberate and purposeful - the column above is one of a hundred that could be dredged up at a moment's notice. They deliberately seek to confuse and frighten people in order to gain political advantage. They accuse their opponents of 'contempt' and 'creating controversy and chaos to exploit it' while doing just that. It's alternately ridiculous and disgusting. But the important part is that it's coming directly from the top down. It's NOT just some disenfranchised fringe elements, it's the leadership itself. The republican party has been corrupted to it's very core. There is no integrity left. Their only remaining purpose is to cravenly seek a return to power in any manner possible - including fomenting mobs - if that's what it takes.
Originally Posted By DVC_Pongo What do you guys who are in favor of the heath care reform, (as it is currently written) hope to gain? Personally. Is any of your lives ANY better, really, in any way since Obama took office? If so, in what way? Are you seeing your hopes that you have placed in Obama come to fruition? If so, how?
Originally Posted By DVC_Pongo And by the by, post 14 is not meant to start any sort of trouble. I don't consider myself Republican anymore. I am genuinely curious.
Originally Posted By Princessjenn5795 I am sure that the people that have no health insurance and live in daily fear that if they get really sick or get in an accident will personally benefit a great deal by being able to get treatment when they need it without going bankrupt. As far as the health care plan affecting my personal life, I will have to wait and see. Right now we pay $400 a month, after an $800 employer contribution, for our family of 4. We have a $1000 individual/$3000 family deductible and a $35 copay. If the public option is less expensive or offers greater benefits we may decide to opt in.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Is any of your lives ANY better, really, in any way since Obama took office? If so, in what way?" Certainly. We're all safer, including you. The world is less inclined to hate us now, and Obama has shown his Administration is not the bully that his predecessor was. Obama sees the value in talk and diplomacy rather than the ridiculous shock and awe.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer What do I hope to gain personally? Other than a sense that we are finally doing the right thing and taking care of our sick and injured, there's not a lot in this for me personally. My life is much better since Obama took office. My wife is a research scientist who works quite a bit with the NIH and the department of Veterans Affairs, and unlike his predecessor the current president supports the sciences wholeheartedly. He's also opened up funding for several transportation projects that will help my commute and will employ friends, and is funding some badly needed USFS and NPS trail work that my kid and I will enjoy. I wanted a president that appointed experts instead of cronies into govt positions and who could speak in complete sentences and who could think about his actions rather than just reacting like a bull to a red flag. I'm happy with him so far
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Is any of your lives ANY better, really, in any way since Obama took office? If so, in what way?<< I feel pride in knowing my President is an intelligent man. I'm honored to have him in the White House. I don't think he's perfect and he's done some things I don't like. I think he's too quick to compromise. But it's just such a wonderful thing to have a man I'm not embarrassed or ashamed of running my country. I also do feel safer, as SPP indicated. >>Are you seeing your hopes that you have placed in Obama come to fruition? If so, how?<< Yes, and that's the real thing. Is my life personally a lot better because of Obama? Not really. I'm a white male over 21. I'm well educated and reasonably intelligent. The truth is, it's not really about people like me. My perspective is it's about people who aren't like me. People who aren't like me get trampled and shunted aside by those in power. Especially Republicans. I have great healthcare. I have a decent home. I have a decent job. But so many Americans don't have these things. And for too long they've been ignored at best, or blamed for their own ills at worst. People deserve healthcare. It's the moral thing to do. It disgusts me that we talk about taxes and money - filthy lucre, for you Christians - when we talk about this. My hell, how can it possibly be about the money!?! We're the richest nation on earth. There's a way to do this. If we make our citizenry healthier, we all win. Obama seems to get that, even though he has to do a political dance when he talks about it.
