Originally Posted By skinnerbox Voter fraud is not the issue. Keeping Democrats from voting is the issue. This article clearly proves it: <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/22/voter-id-laws-gop-college-student_n_1791568.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...568.html</a> <> Voter ID Laws Take Aim At College-Student Voters Posted: 09/22/2012 9:39 am EDT Updated: 09/22/2012 10:16 am EDT In Tennessee, a new law requiring voters to show photo identification at the polls explicitly excludes student IDs. In Wisconsin, college students are newly disallowed from using university-provided housing lists or corroboration from other students to verify their residence. Florida's reduction in early voting days is expected to reduce the number of young and first-time voters there. And Pennsylvania's voter identification bill, still on the books for now, disallows many student IDs and non-Pennsylvania driver's licenses, which means out-of-state students may be turned away at the polls. In 2008, youth voter turnout was higher that it had been since Vietnam, and overwhelmingly for Barack Obama. This time around, the GOP isn't counting solely on disillusionment to keep the student vote down. In the last two years, Republican-controlled state legislatures have passed dozens of bills that erect new barriers to voting, all targeting Democratic-leaning groups, many specifically aimed at students. The GOP's stated rationale is to fight voter fraud. But voter fraud -- and especially in-person fraud which many of these measures address -- is essentially nonexistent. None of the new laws blocks student voting outright -- although in New Hampshire, Republican lawmakers almost passed a bill that would have banned out-of-state students from casting a ballot. (The leader of the State House, Bill O'Brien, was caught on tape explaining how the move was necessary to stop students from "basically doing what I did when I was a kid: voting as a liberal.") And in some states, education officials are trying to limit the damage. In Pennsylvania, for instance, many universities are either reissuing IDs or printing expiration stickers to make current cards valid, according to a survey by the Pennsylvania Public Interest Research Group. But every additional barrier makes a difference to students, said Maxwell Love, a 21-year-old senior at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. "It's the little things that make voting harder that are going to affect apathetic students ... This is like literally slamming the door on youth engagement." Voting advocates agree. "This is absolutely perfectly rigged to prevent students from voting," said David Halperin, an attorney and former director of national youth organization Campus Progress. The Republican motivation is obvious, Halperin said. "In general, they would prefer that students don't vote ... They certainly don't want students to vote in swing states who don't live in swing states." Potentially even more damaging to student voter turnout is the confusion caused by new and changing rules, some of which are being challenged in court. "The confusion surrounding it ... is the most infuriating thing," said Love. "The confusion is, like, literally pissing people off to the point where they're not going to take the time to figure it out." Eric Marshall, manager of legal mobilization at the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, said Republican voter suppression efforts have "heightened the level of confusion" for all voters, but students are most likely to get thrown off because they're new to the system. Proving residency or meeting strict criteria for photo ID can be difficult for college students, particularly out-of-state students, or those who don't drive. Out-of-state students frequently don't get in-state ID when they go to college -- but still want to vote there. Changing addresses is one factor. "In college life, you move around from dorm to dorm, but you reside in that city where the college is located for the majority of the year," said Anne Taylor, a graduate student at Marquette University in Milwaukee, and former president of the College Democrats there. "I think you should have a say in who is going to represent your needs." Deion Jordan, a 17-year-old high school senior and Philadelphia youth commissioner, won't be old enough to vote in November but plans to help others get to the polls on behalf of the Obama campaign. "I'm scared that people are going to show up without any form of identification, and are going to be turned away," he said. Younger voters are particularly susceptible to the new voter ID law, he said. "It'll hinder them. They're not politically literate. They don't know about this law." David Kaiser-Jones, a junior at the University of Pennsylvania, shares that concern. "A lot of students might show up on Election Day, and for the first time in their life, be disenfranchised," he said. Pennsylvania is a swing state; it's also the state with the most out-of-state students in the country. Out-of-state students are particularly vulnerable, Kaiser-Jones said, because they otherwise have no need to get in-state ID. "You can do anything else in Pennsylvania with a driver's license from another state," he said, "except vote." In Wisconsin, a lot of students may find they don't have the documents they need to prove their residency in November. Ann Jacobs, a Milwaukee lawyer, coordinated the hotlines for Wisconsin Election Protection during her state's gubernatorial recall election in June, and dealt with many students who faced problems voting because they recently had moved out of their dorms, but hadn't met the state's new 28-day residency requirement anywhere else yet. Part of the problem is that students don't do much on paper anymore. "Their documents aren't documents," she said. "Their documents are smartphone screens." Some of the traditional ways of establishing residency, therefore, like showing utility bills or bank statements, aren't so easy. That hasn't been a problem in Wisconsin the past, Jacobs said, because election officials used to have dorm lists they could check. "That was taken away," she said. Or the officials could ask proven residents to corroborate the residency of others. "They also got rid of corroborators," she said. "It's pretty nefarious how you can really finagle people out of voting." "Every level of these voter ID laws is fraught with hypocrisy," said Marshall. In Tennessee, for instance, a university-provided ID is not considered acceptable proof of identity for students, but it is for faculty. Tennessee Sen. Bill Ketron, who sponsored his state's voter ID bill, said student IDs are frequently forged so students can lie about their age, although student IDs generally don't display birth dates. Hedy Weinberg, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Tennessee, said banning student IDs as voter verification "makes it really obvious that the goal is to suppress the students' access to the ballots." The rollback of early voting periods also will inevitably reduce the youth vote; about 24 percent of 18- to 29-year-old voters from states that allowed it voted early and in person in 2008. Groups that fought voter suppression efforts are now trying to minimize their effects. The Brennan Center for Justice at New York University has a student voting guide that includes information for each state. And the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law is supplementing its election protection hotline with a smartphone app that provides voter registration, registration status verification, polling place information, voting rules and contact information for election protection staffers. <> Jim Crow is alive and well on college campuses across the country. How desperate the GOP has become, now that their base of angry old white guys is getting old and dying off.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 Can they use their IDs to buy cigs or beer? Most Student IDs are easily forgeable. Why is it so difficult to make a standard for a universal voter ID that uses existing databases in States, charging people a mandatory 5 dollars a year through the IRS for the ID card, with an exception for those making less than 10k a year. Even better, tie having this ID to the Obamacare law and BAM you have successfully stopped voter and medical fraud in one swoop...
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Can they use their IDs to buy cigs or beer? Most Student IDs are easily forgeable.>> Did you even read the article??? "Tennessee Sen. Bill Ketron, who sponsored his state's voter ID bill, said student IDs are frequently forged so students can lie about their age, although student IDs generally don't display birth dates." What part of "...student IDs generally don't display birth dates" don't you understand? Most student I.D.s do NOT have birth dates on them. I attended three different community colleges and two different universities for my B.A. and M.A. None of them issued I.D.s with birth dates on them, for obvious reasons: not every one who attends college is under the age of 21. Putting a retiree's birth date on the I.D., as an example, is in very poor taste and obviously not necessary. The Republican Senator from Tennessee was pulling a non-existent excuse from his arse to justify disenfranchising students who would most likely vote Democrat.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 My point was if it isn't a state or nation issued ID it shouldn't be used.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Then how do students prove residency, if they are not allowed to use the dorm list as in the past combined with their student IDs? If they're living in the dorms and attending school as students, the college/university knows who they are. They have to know. It's required. It's not like you can just show up one day with tens of thousands of dollars in your wallet, without any current ID or school transcripts and enroll in the school. That's not how it works. Relying on school data such as IDs and dorm lists to establish residency and student status is proof enough. And county election officials accepted this evidence for decades. What changed? What's the problem? Why is this no longer acceptable? Oh yeah... I keep forgetting. The huge base of old white people voting Republican is starting to die off. My bad.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 That's not the case at all. I am curious as to the percentage of college students without a state issued ID, as without one you can not get cigs, beer, or drive, or even get a job... My guess is it is a very small percentage.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< That's not the case at all. I am curious as to the percentage of college students without a state issued ID, as without one you can not get cigs, beer, or drive, or even get a job... >>> You're missing a big point about the PA law: it requires a *PA-issued* ID and does not recognize any form of ID issued by another state. A driver license or ID card from any state will work to buy cigarettes, beer, or to get a job. And certainly the school is going to accept one. Many students don't have a car while at college, so those from out of state may not otherwise have any need to get a local license even if they otherwise consider themselves a PA resident for the purposes of voting. And even if they do consider themselves local residents, have a car, and drive on their out-of-state license (or on no license), having not driven without a valid license is not a requirement to be able to vote.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Why is it so difficult to make a standard for a universal voter ID that uses existing databases in States, charging people a mandatory 5 dollars a year through the IRS for the ID card, with an exception for those making less than 10k a year. >>> That may be all well and good, but considering that we don't currently have such a thing, is now a good time to try to enact it based on what we do have? It's obvious to anyone that Voter ID is a Republican-led effort to attempt to change the outcome of elections by making it more difficult people that vote Democratic to cast their votes. Or do you think otherwise?
Originally Posted By velo Are absentee ballots available in these states (not that that would solve this travesty)? I know that one of my college kids is having her ballot sent down to her dorm address so that she can vote that way (no need to find the polling place or vote on local measures that she doesn't know about yet).
Originally Posted By EdisYoda This is but one valid argument for nationalizing elections (at least for national offices). What works in one state, can't be used in another, and may be illegal in another. I some states, if you are in residence longer then 6 months, you're considered a resident, however, in other states it may be 3 months. So, in that case where do these students vote?
Originally Posted By TomSawyer I think that students can always claim residency in their home states, and can vote with absentee ballots.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox ^^ Only if their home state has absentee ballots. Not all states do. And let's not forget that the main reason the GOP isn't focusing on the potential of absentee ballot abuse, is because the majority of absentee ballot voters are registered Republicans. Democrats in Florida have long suspected that a small percentage of "snowbird" retirees have been voting in their home states through absentee ballots, then voting again in Florida when they travel to their winter homes after Halloween. And in very closely contested races, this is significant.
Originally Posted By EdisYoda That's not the case in all 50 states though. In some states, once you've lived in that state over a certain number of days, you are considered a resident of that state. This is where it get muddied.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf I can't speak for Republican intentions.....it is entirely possible they are trying to use this to their advantage. But voting is a right for citizens only. I don't think it's too much to ask for somoeone to prove their citizenship in order to vote. If they aren't resourceful enough to do that, do we really want them voting on the most powerful person in the world? Just because someone can vote doesn't mean they should....
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< But voting is a right for citizens only. I don't think it's too much to ask for somoeone to prove their citizenship in order to vote. >>> But that's not what any of these laws do. For example, the problematic PA law requires photo ID - it does not require proof of citizenship. The issue of non-citizens actually voting is so small that it might as well be considered non-existent. On the other hand, most of these voting "reforms" that have been proposed will have large and widesweeping affects on people that are eligible to vote. <<< If they aren't resourceful enough to do that, do we really want them voting on the most powerful person in the world? Just because someone can vote doesn't mean they should.... >>> So, should we have an intelligence test in addition to a poll tax to vet people before they can vote? At first I was going to say I wouldn't put it past them, but then I realized it will never happen, as a large number of Fox News viewers might end up being disenfranchised.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf <<But that's not what any of these laws do. For example, the problematic PA law requires photo ID - it does not require proof of citizenship.>> Government issued photo ID, no? Why is that so hard?! My wife is a naturalized citizen and my mother-in-law, who lives with me, is a permanent resident with a green card. She can't vote and can't speak a word of English but has a government issued ID card with a photo. If you wanna vote, put in some freakin' effort. <<So, should we have an intelligence test in addition to a poll tax to vet people before they can vote? At first I was going to say I wouldn't put it past them, but then I realized it will never happen, as a large number of Fox News viewers might end up being disenfranchised.>> LOL....I think an intelligence test would weed out a significant element of both sides. I'm all for it. Skip the poll tax though....we are taxed plenty.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Government issued photo ID, no? Why is that so hard?! My wife is a naturalized citizen and my mother-in-law, who lives with me, is a permanent resident with a green card. She can't vote and can't speak a word of English but has a government issued ID card with a photo. >>> You've just contradicted yourself and proven my point about the Voter ID requirements. Your mother-in-law isn't a citizen but has a gov't issued photo ID. If it was a PA state ID, and she'd be entitled to one if she lived there, she'd be allowed to vote with that alone. I'll say it again: Voter ID does not prevent non-citizens from voting. The only type of voter fraud it prevents is impersonation, which is virtually non-existent.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< LOL....I think an intelligence test would weed out a significant element of both sides. >>> Perhaps, but Fox News has the only TV news audience that's had this result: "A poll by Farleigh Dickinson University in New Jersey showed that of all the news channels out there, Fox News viewers are the least informed.... In fact, FDU poll results showed they were even less informed than those who say they don’t watch any news at all." <a href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2011/11/21/fox-news-viewers-uninformed-npr-listeners-not-poll-suggests/" target="_blank">http://www.forbes.com/sites/ke...uggests/</a>
Originally Posted By Dabob2 " I don't think it's too much to ask for somoeone to prove their citizenship in order to vote" You have to prove that when you register. That's how you get on the rolls. In-person impersonation just doesn't happen. Yet in PA alone, hundreds of thousands of perfectly legal voters may disenfranchised. (And do a little reading on the requirements before you blithely say "put in some effort.")
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 In-person impersonation just doesn't happen. Yet in PA alone, hundreds of thousands of perfectly legal voters may disenfranchised. (And do a little reading on the requirements before you blithely say "put in some effort.")<< Yes it does happen, hell skinner implied in another thread that Republicans in FL do it... So let's stop the partisan BS...
