Originally Posted By X-san Okay, so considering what a second class status (at BEST) almost ALL the major religions place upon women, why do they continue to show up and worship devoutly? Are they just suckers? Do they really ACCEPT their "lower place" in the scheme of the church? Seriously, when you look at almost any religious book, women are treated as property or slaves. When you look at how most major religions TREAT women, it gets even worse (because you can forgive a BOOK for being old fashioned, after all). Women for the most part can not hold any office of importance in most faiths. In some faiths, they are downright mistreated (certainly the Muslim faith springs to mind), but anyway in almost all cases women are regarded as unimportant and unworthy. So, what is it that brings women back into the houses of worship again and again? Seems stupid to me, frankly. I would think women would create their OWN church rather than put up with the blatant sexism (please don't tell me it's because GOD is sexist or something!?).
Originally Posted By dshyates In classical Christian dogma, women are more like possessions to be used as barter. But they have changed the Dogma to be more palatable to modern societies sensitive tastes. I call them the "Pick and Chose Protestants". They pick what they like and then hammer it home like its etched in stone.
Originally Posted By pecos bill Most simply believe what they have been taught. Intimidation comes to mind for a percentage. How does a Muslim woman rebel against the faith, when doing so places her in a grave situation? It is a fact that many religious people are very doubtful, but continue with the practice for fear of upsetting the herd mentality. The same could certainly apply for women. The bottom line is that a lot of them are simply trapped. Those who do truly believe, well, thats their problem.
Originally Posted By RockyMtnMinnie To be quite honest, this is probably the number one reason I have stayed away from organized religions. I can't see God creating a beautiful mind to be dominated and supressed. These religions were not created through faith. They were created through force.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip They are unclean about 7 days a month. What do you expect?? [sarcasm off]
Originally Posted By Mrs ElderP I think, fundamentally women are different emotionally. Of course these differences are differences in degrees, not in kind. Thus, the more accurate statement is that most women and signifigantly different different than most men emotional. I would NEVER say that all women are more emotional than all men, certainly there is an overlap. Anyway, I think that in general women just "get" religioun more. They *feel* it more often, whether it's budhism, catholosism, hinduism, prodistantism, mormonism, or any other -ism. Religion is a female's thing more than it's a male's thing (again, in general). Now, some extrapolating on my part. I think that religion's world leaders and/or God want everyone involved not just women. So, to get men involved they gave them a leadership role. Unfortunatly, people being people (men and women) once given a position of leadership the men abused it. Still the women stick with it, because it's still religion and it still brings peace and good feelings. Totally my hypothosis.
Originally Posted By mele I think women are interested in living the tenets, the beliefs and not worried about the past history or how women were treated hundreds upon hundreds of years ago. It IS a factor for me and that is why I am no longer religious.
Originally Posted By imadisneygal Being a Reform Jew this isn't anywhere near as much a factor for me as it is in other religions. Reform Judaism places just as much emphasis on the matriarchs (Sarah, Rebekah, Rachel and Leah) of our religion as the patriarchs (Abraham Isaac and Jacob.) Of course in Orthodox Judiasm this isn't the case, but in my denomination it is. Women are ordained as rabbis, gay couples are married as Jews (not civilly, obviously, but commitment ceremonies that fulfill the Jewish laws for marriage), women are invited to the bimah (altar) to read from and translate the Torah, etc. I guess this is one of the main reasons I have maintained association with Reform Judaism, because there really is no subjugation of women in any of the congregations I have attended.
Originally Posted By X-san That sounds quite ideal, Disneygal. That's the first religion I've heard of that seems completely enlightened in this regard.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Actually there are many religions that no longer exclude women in leadership roles. I know that it is VERY common nowadays for women to be pastors in the United Methodist Church, and the more liberal of the Presbyterian Denominations have lots of female pastors as well. It doesn't stop there. Much religion is changing somewhat in regards to women.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder I can think of any number of black women who don't feel like second class citizens in their churches in and around South L.A. Quite the contrary, they feel God has empowered them to be loud, proud and black.
Originally Posted By friendofdd It seems a bit simplistic to separate religion from the culture. It is just in recent times that most cultures have started looking at women and men as being equal in all areas of life. So to see religions just in the light of our current culture is a very narrow viewpoint. One might as well ask why is it that most percussionists are men. Are women unable to do as well as men in that musical arena? Having said that, I am a member os a protestant denomination that started in the 19th century. From it's very beginning women have been treated as equals in all areas of ministry, including being the ecclesiastical leadership of the entire denomination which ministers in 115 countries at present.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 I think this is related to what both Mrs ElderP and imadisneygal have posted... "Religion," the package, is more than just the rules. It's the fellowship, the familiar and comforting ritual, the sociology, the heritage, the sense of belonging, the sense of something larger. Women tend to be relational and abstract. Women derive comfort from the above. And they learn to develop a (necessary) ability to discredit/disregard the sexist rules that would distance themselves from those comforting aspects. What percentage of American Catholic women who consider themselves to be "devout" or "very devout" use birth control -- which is emphatically prohibitted by the religion? It's well above 90%. These women do some kind of mental gymnastics to enable themselves to feel that they are embracing the religion completely and to believe that the religion is embracing them. Bizarre. And very sad. You want to be a part of your community, the community into which you were born. You want to be a good person, to adhere to the important tenants of your community's religion. But in order to keep to a family size that you can successfully support, you are forced to violate the rules of the church that is central to your community. Yikes.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<Having said that, I am a member os a protestant denomination that started in the 19th century. From it's very beginning women have been treated as equals in all areas of ministry, including being the ecclesiastical leadership of the entire denomination which ministers in 115 countries at present.>> Thank you for the reminder that not all Christian denominations discriminate on the basis of gender, friendofdd. That's a very good point.
Originally Posted By X-san ***It seems a bit simplistic to separate religion from the culture. It is just in recent times that most cultures have started looking at women and men as being equal in all areas of life. So to see religions just in the light of our current culture is a very narrow viewpoint. One might as well ask why is it that most percussionists are men. Are women unable to do as well as men in that musical arena?*** Excellent, just EXCELLENT contribution DD. Thanks. And you are right on. It's interesting to hear comments from you and others about how not all religions are stuck in the same old situation as it were. The do tend to change more slowly, eh? Especially the big ones, I'd say.
Originally Posted By X-san ***One might as well ask why is it that most percussionists are men. Are women unable to do as well as men in that musical arena?*** That is an excellent observation, by the way...one that deserves its' own discussion I think. I'm off to start one in Community (I think it's safe enough to keep that out of world events, no?). I'll be sure to credit you for the idea though DD, if you don't mind. As a musician, a VERY good topic for discussion I think.
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn What really matters is gaining entry into Heaven. Regardless of the opinions of the cultural traditions surrounding "religions", nothing changes the truth. A religion cannot be changes to suit own's pleasures and remaing truthful. There is only one way to Heaven. That cannot be changed.
Originally Posted By christiemarsh88 I'm a woman, and a very involved member of the Assemblies of God church. I've never felt like a "second-class citizen" in my church. In fact, women hold many leadership roles in my local church. We have two female pastors on staff, and the women in the congregation organize most of the drives, fund raisers, outings, etc. Nationwide, men make up the vast majority of Assemblies of God pastors. But that's not because there's anything discouraging women from a leadership role. It just has more to do with traditional roles, much like the how the majority of elementary teachers are women. It's not because of any rules or guidelines. In the Bible, men and women are equally recognized for their ministry potential. "Your sons and your daughters will prophesy…" (Joel 2:28, NIV) And while a few Old Testament passages reflect the restricted status of women that was common during the time period, throughout the Bible, individual women are given high places of prominence, and held up as shining examples of humanity's potential. Ruth, Esther, Deborah, Abigail and many, many others show a positive attitude toward women that is highly uncharacteristic for their time. In the New Testament, Paul said "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her. . ." As I'm sure everyone knows, the tentpole of Christianity is that Jesus Christ gave his life so that people could be saved from the penalties of sin. In this verse, Paul says that husbands should love their wives that much--that they would willingly give their lives for their wife's well being. Unfortunately, one of the most well-known passages of the Bible is 1 Peter 3:1-- "Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands..." For years, people have used this as a verse both to show the "backwards" thinking of Christianity or to justify their own domination of their wives. But few people know the complete verse: "Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct." This command to obey ones husband does not reflect an anti-woman stance, rather it gives women instruction on how to help their husbands, by showing them the way to peace and harmony. Jesus himself had many women in his inner circle, most famously Mary and Martha, and refused to condemn a woman for adultery when the religious leaders of the day demanded that she alone should pay the price. Jesus instead challenged the men there to examine their own lives and realize that this woman was no more guilty than they were. This message of equality is the one that is often ignored by the secular world, and instead the church is portrayed as backwards and sexist. Well, I'm proud to say that I am a woman, and a child of God.
