Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder <a href="http://blog.aclu.org/2009/07/09/aclu-seeks-to-end-bible-censorship-at-virginia-jail/" target="_blank">http://blog.aclu.org/2009/07/0...ia-jail/</a> So there.
Originally Posted By ecdc Yup. People have no clue how much the ACLU defends religious people in cases that don't often get a lot of publicity. But, they make a heck of a scapegoat for people who view the world in black and white terms, and for those who have no grasp on the history of religion in American culture and government. Kind of like this guy: <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/09/bill-oreilly-slams-obamas_n_229179.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...179.html</a>
Originally Posted By plpeters70 You gotta love this quote: <<Secularists "are mainly concerned with things of this world, like global warming.">> Hello - he's the President of the United States, not the Pope. His only job IS to be concerned with the "things of this world". It amazes me how much these fundamentalists seem to really want to turn this country into some kind of theocracy! Scary!!
Originally Posted By ecdc <<<<<Proudly a secularist who's only concerned with things of this world. I just assume make this life good instead of doubling-down and hoping against hope there's a next one.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<Hello - he's the President of the United States, not the Pope>> FWIW, the Pope is very concerned about the environment.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<FWIW, the Pope is very concerned about the environment.>> As he should be - it won't be easy to run a global religion when the world is falling apart around him!! You know, it's really a shame that the churches in this country don't use some of that preaching power they have to really get people motivated to clean up the environment, and get our country on clean, renewable sources of energy. Unfortunately, they only seem to get that motivated when they're trying to deny fellow Americans their rights!!
Originally Posted By alexbook >>You know, it's really a shame that the churches in this country don't use some of that preaching power they have to really get people motivated to clean up the environment, and get our country on clean, renewable sources of energy.<< Plenty of them are doing exactly that. It's not at all clear to me that the majority of American Christian ministers, pastors, priests, etc., support the leaders of the religious right.
Originally Posted By utahjosh So as long as an organization does some very good things, you ignore the things you really don't like that they do?
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy Bill Moyers had a great episode last week that involved an interview with 3 prominent Christian theologians who were all of a view that religion should be more supportive of social (and global) issues. It was a very enlightening interview and can be found on the Bill Moyers website. I watch nearly all of his stuff. You can't help but learn something from these sorts of intelligent discussions that are far better than the polarizing shouting matches on other news programs.
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF >>So as long as an organization does some very good things, you ignore the things you really don't like that they do?<< You mean like the LDS Church?
Originally Posted By DAR I don't have a problem when the ACLU defends religious groups or hell-dwellers er Atheists ;p. I just have a problem when they defend you know......terrorists.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I just have a problem when they defend you know......terrorists.<< No, you have a problem when they defend you know....suspected terrorists. The ACLU seems to think that we should have a trial for them and find out if they actually are terrorists before we go rounding up anyone with brown skin and funny-sounding names.
Originally Posted By DAR Fine then the one's who aren't terrorists we can let them go and they can move on with their lives. It's the anti-West, let's bomb the innocents that they shouldn't be defending. Let's not forget the fact that they're also anti-Jewish, you know kind of like Hitler and that Nazi movement of his. Yeah let's defend people like that.
Originally Posted By alexbook Everyone's entitled to a defense. It's the only way you can have a fair system.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>It's the anti-West, let's bomb the innocents that they shouldn't be defending. Let's not forget the fact that they're also anti-Jewish, you know kind of like Hitler and that Nazi movement of his. Yeah let's defend people like that.<< It depends on what you mean by "defend." Defend in a trial? That's how our system works. It's how we do our best to ensure that innocent people don't get scapegoated. And as for some of what the ACLU does, is there a difference between letting a Muslim terrorist have a Qur'an in prison, and a Christian child rapist have a Bible in prison? I just believe in consistency. The ACLU believes these people have a right to that. As long as they stay in prison for the rest of their lives, I really don't care. But we can't pick and choose who we're more outraged about. Bernie Madoff can have a New Testament, but Ted Kaczynski can't? DAR, I'm not sure why you insist, time and time again, as somehow portraying Americans as if we're on opposite sides on this. I don't know *anyone* who likes terrorists. I don't know anyone who doesn't think they shouldn't be killed on the battlefield or locked up forever if they're captured alive. No one is fawning over these people and saying, "Gee, maybe they had a rough childhood. Let's give 'em another shot." But you're blinded by your hatred and outrage for these people, and you want to discard the very things that make our country great in order to take your revenge. There's nothing less American than locking people up without a trial. There's nothing less American than guilty until proven innocent. That's what your favorite leader, Ahmadinejad, is doing in Iran right now.
Originally Posted By DAR But see the majority of these terrorists down in Guantanamo are guilty or will join up when released. And I'm in favor of giving American citizens or legal citizens of another country a fair trial. But these terrorists don't really belong to anyone country so they shouldn't be treated fairly.
Originally Posted By Labuda "But see the majority of these terrorists down in Guantanamo are guilty or will join up when released. " Ummm, they haven't been tried yet - how do you know they're guilty? And, as for them possibly "joining up" aftger they're released - I hate to admit it, but I think that's a strong possibility since we, oh, I dunno, imprisoned them illegally and treated them like dirt for years. I suspect that may make even a diehard patriot hate America.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>But see the majority of these terrorists down in Guantanamo are guilty or will join up when released.<< Who's arguing for their release? All I hear is arguments for a trial. There are a handful of people for whom the ACLU and others have taken up causes for because the evidence strongly points to their innocence. >>And I'm in favor of giving American citizens or legal citizens of another country a fair trial. But these terrorists don't really belong to anyone country so they shouldn't be treated fairly.<< Yes, they are citizens of some countries - Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, etc. Therefore, we have the Geneva Convention for that, and they should fall under those rules. Because by your reasoning, any American soldier captured by the enemy "shouldn't be treated fairly" because they aren't part of the terrorist organization or one of their countries. And just because Islamic culture is more tribal than state-oriented, doesn't mean we are exempt from the Geneva Convention. It's precisely that kind of lack of understanding of the Islamic world that's gotten us into a lot of this mess.
Originally Posted By DAR It's the hatred of the West and Israel that has gotten the Islamic world into this mess. <<Because by your reasoning, any American soldier captured by the enemy "shouldn't be treated fairly" because they aren't part of the terrorist organization or one of their countries.>> And no American soldiers, Israeli soldiers, European soliders, any Muslim soldiers willing to stand up to terrorism should be treated fairly because they're doing the right thing.
