Originally Posted By ecdc <a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/la-oe-rutten30-2008aug30,0,2288193.column" target="_blank">http://www.latimes.com/news/op...3.column</a> As more details emerge about Palin, we learn that she's not just anti-abortion or pro-gun. We also learn that she's a creationist who supports teaching creationism in public schools. We also learn that she doesn't believe climate change is man-made. How can Americans, once again, vote for someone so disconnected from reality? The John McCain of a few years ago believed in man-affected climate change. What happened to him? This really is an important election, folks. Do women really want to vote for people who may very well continue the Bush administration's recent attempts to define birth control as abortion? (Palin is 43 and has 5 children; it certainly is plausible that she believes birth control is morally wrong.) Evangelical leaders have shown themselves more than willing in the past to force their beliefs on the rest of us. Is that really what we want in a vice-President who has a higher-than-average chance of becoming President?
Originally Posted By woody It's a bit weaker than that. Palin "encourages" it, but does not seek any policy change to allow it. She would leave it up to the school boards to decide.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>It's a bit weaker than that. Palin "encourages" it, but does not seek any policy change to allow it.<< No, she said she'd like it taught alongside evolution, which panders to the right and continues the myth that somehow evolution and creationism are on an even playing field. Both are just as likely, we'd be led to believe. Of course, by this logic, then we better be teaching the ancient Egyptian's idea of the creation of the world as a plausible option, too. And when we get to history class, I want to hear that another possibility for the moon landing was that it was shot on a soundstage in Van Nuys. And 9/11 discussions better mention that Bush could've ordered the towers down. Because hey, all theories are on an equal playing field, according to creationists.
Originally Posted By barboy ///she's a creationist who supports teaching creationism in public schools. We also learn that she doesn't believe climate change is man-made./// You do realize that once you told us that she aligns herself with creationism then you really didn't need to tell us about her other beliefs such as gun ownership, abortion, capital punishment or climate change, right? If one is a creationist then by law he must do the republican/conservative thing on the issues.
Originally Posted By woody >>If one is a creationist then by law he must do the republican/conservative thing on the issues.<< What law is that? This doesn't make any sense. But you're right about the other things. This is distracting from other more important policy issues; however, I think the American public is largely conservative with regard to guns and capital punishment. With abortion and climate change, Palin and McCain are more moderate in position.
Originally Posted By gadzuux Providing the general public with unfettered access to limitless firearms is a 'conservative value'. Got it. George Orwell lives!
Originally Posted By skinnerbox "With abortion and climate change, Palin and McCain are more moderate in position." That is simply not true. McCain voted 11 times on abortion issues during his short term in the House; 10 of those votes where anti-abortion. Since McCain has been in the Senate, he has voted 119 times on abortion and reproductive rights issues; 115 of those votes were anti-choice. McCain is CLEARLY anti-abortion and anti-choice regarding women's reproductive rights. As for Palin, she has expressly stated that abortion is wrong in ALL instances INCLUDING pregnancy resulting from INCEST and RAPE. NO EXCEPTIONS WHATSOEVER. How are these positions remotely "moderate"? They are hard core neoconservative fundamentalist positions. They are anti-choice anti-reproductive rights positions. Period.
Originally Posted By woody You're right about abortion. They are not moderate, but McCain was not with sync with the religious right on abortion until recently, thus the concern that he will pick a moderate (Lieberman or Ridge) as his VP pick.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< As for Palin, she has expressly stated that abortion is wrong in ALL instances INCLUDING pregnancy resulting from INCEST and RAPE. NO EXCEPTIONS WHATSOEVER. >>> As I mentioned in another thread but nobody cared to follow up on, the above is actually very consistent and reasonable for someone that comes at the issue of abortion from a religious belief that life begins at conception.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<As more details emerge about Palin, we learn that she's not just anti-abortion or pro-gun. We also learn that she's a creationist who supports teaching creationism in public schools. We also learn that she doesn't believe climate change is man-made. How can Americans, once again, vote for someone so disconnected from reality?>> I could handle that (mostly because its just posturing). What I can't handle are people who claim that they are "pro-family" and yet embrace policies that are financially harmful to families.
Originally Posted By barboy ///As for Palin, she has expressly stated that abortion is wrong in ALL instances INCLUDING pregnancy resulting from INCEST and RAPE. NO EXCEPTIONS WHATSOEVER./// Why all the outrage? ///As I mentioned in another thread but nobody cared to follow up on, the above is actually very consistent and reasonable for someone that comes at the issue of abortion from a religious belief that life begins at conception./// you bet SD! There should be nothing outrageous whatsoever about it. If one proclaims humans are created upon conception then to be consistent one has to denounce all forms of abortion including 'INCEST and RAPE'.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox "Why all the outrage?" If you have ever been pregnant as a result of being forcibly raped then you would know why. If you have never experienced this phenomenon for yourself then you cannot possibly imagine what it is like. Given your moniker I doubt you are in the position to experience pregnancy at all.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< If you have ever been pregnant as a result of being forcibly raped then you would know why. If you have never experienced this phenomenon for yourself then you cannot possibly imagine what it is like. Given your moniker I doubt you are in the position to experience pregnancy at all. >>> I'm sure that it's a terrible feeling. But does it rise to the point that an innocent baby should be murdered (the terminology often used by pro-life people)? I can't think of any other crime of violence where the victim is allowed to murder an innocent third party because it will help them recover. Again, I have to make clear that I'm looking at this from the point of view of someone who claims to believe that life begins at conception and that's why abortion should be illegal, and not my own standpoint.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Again, I have to make clear that I'm looking at this from the point of view of someone who claims to believe that life begins at conception and that's why abortion should be illegal, and not my own standpoint.<< That was my point as well (I believe on the same thread, but maybe not). It was to point out the wrong-headed thinking in defining life as beginning at conception, and the multiple inconsistencies in the far-right's view of life and abortion. While I do understand the emotional connection people make to a three-day old embryo and a cute little newborn, it's a fallacy. Like I mentioned, somewhere between 50 and 70% of natural conceptions fail. The fertilized egg fails to attached to the uterine lining and the woman never even knows she was pregnant. By the right-wing definition, this is a death that is in the same vein as the death of a newborn, or a toddler, or an adolescent, or an adult. Yet they do not behave that way.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***but McCain was not with sync with the religious right on abortion until recently, thus the concern that he will pick a moderate (Lieberman or Ridge) as his VP pick.*** Well, thank Christ he managed to turn himself around on that one!
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Palin's views on abortion may be internally consistent (or, as ecdc points out, perhaps not), but they are not in the mainstream of American opinion. She's yet another McCain sop to the far right.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< It was to point out the wrong-headed thinking in defining life as beginning at conception >>> As a point of order, I'm saying something different than you. I'm not pointing out that it's wrong-headed to believe that life begins at conception. What I'm saying is that if you believe such a thing, then it would seem that your only option would be to be against abortion not only in the ordinary situation, but also in situations of rape and incest.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>As a point of order, I'm saying something different than you. I'm not pointing out that it's wrong-headed to believe that life begins at conception. What I'm saying is that if you believe such a thing, then it would seem that your only option would be to be against abortion not only in the ordinary situation, but also in situations of rape and incest.<< I totally understand, and think you make a great point. I was using your post as a jumping off point to argue against the entire notion of believing that life begins at conception. I probably shouldn't have quoted you as if I was trying to retort or respond Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Originally Posted By woody Americans are increasingly against abortion. You should stop the talking points that only the far rights are for restricting abortion rights. The worst the Supreme Court can do is send it back to the states where they will make the decision.
