Originally Posted By WilliamK99 <a href="http://www.komotv.com/stories/43774.htm" target="_blank">http://www.komotv.com/stories/ 43774.htm</a> OK, this issue is close to home since I am on same post as this guy. IMO, when you sign a contract with the military, you are essentially committing yourself no matter what. It's not like you can join and then decide, oh wait, I am too scared to go back to Iraq, I protest this war. I admit I am angry and upset with what is happening overseas but guess what? I signed a contract. I signed my name on a piece of paper. I committed myself no matter what to "defend the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic." I did not sign a contract that states to "fight all enemies in which I want to fight and quit if we fight someone I don't want to fight" Life sucks sometimes, and sometimes you have to do something you do not like, but thats what life is about. This Lieutenant seems to feel he is better than everyone else, and like an idiot announced his intentions ahead of time. So lets open this up to discussion and see if we can go over 10 posts without an admin. Do you feel what this officer is saying is justified? Or do you think he is showing disloyalty to the military and dishonoring himself? You know my opinion, what is yours?
Originally Posted By friendofdd Opportunism in a politician is distasteful, but in a military officer it is just plain ugly. One has to assume he knew military regs before accepting his commission.
Originally Posted By Shooba I generally agree. Most jobs will sometimes require us to do things we disagree with or think are wrong. Obviously in the case of war, it's much more serious, but the same underlying principle applies. I also understand where he is coming from. It's important that people make their voice heard, if they feel they are risking their life without sufficient justification. I guess he has a moral obligation to stand up for what he believes in, but are his actions here reasonable? I'm kind of undecided.
Originally Posted By mele I usually agree with you William, but what if you were so morally opposed to a particular war; what if you knew you might have to kill people over something you truly didn't believe in? Would you be able to do it? Maybe he signed up for the military and honestly trusted that any war we fought in would be just and right and that he would be able to go through with it. Wouldn't it be honorable of a person to refuse to do something that they do not believe in? Yes, he signed up for the job but even if I signed up for the job, I would not take part in the murdering of people if I didn't feel I was protecting myself or my country. (*I'm not saying the war in Iraq is right or wrong, I'm saying that is how HE feels and I think it is honorable to risk up to 5 years in jail for something you believe in. Of course, he could just be opportunistic. I don't know, but I'm not going to immediately think him a coward or unAmerican simply because he chooses not to fight this particular war.)
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 I guess he has a moral obligation to stand up for what he believes in<< Unfortunately he signed some paperwork and took an oath.... He is an officer, back in the 1800s , if some officer tried this crap he would be taken out back and shot for treason. Now I am not advocating this but where does this end? Anarchy? The military is based on trust, honor and loyalty. By publicly saying he is going to dessert, he betrayed his soldiers, his unit and his country. He could have handled this privately, but instead sought attention. I heard rumors that the MPs are going to tail him the night before his unit deploys and arrest him if he even thinks about not going to Iraq with his unit. I hope he gets lots of prison time, heck I disagree with some things the President says and does, but I am not holding a press conference and acting like a fool. There is a time and place for everything....this is neither the time or place to act like this.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 I guess he has a moral obligation to stand up for what he believes in<< Unfortunately he signed some paperwork and took an oath.... He is an officer, back in the 1800s , if some officer tried this crap he would be taken out back and shot for treason. Now I am not advocating this but where does this end? Anarchy? The military is based on trust, honor and loyalty. By publicly saying he is going to dessert, he betrayed his soldiers, his unit and his country. He could have handled this privately, but instead sought attention. I heard rumors that the MPs are going to tail him the night before his unit deploys and arrest him if he even thinks about not going to Iraq with his unit. I hope he gets lots of prison time, heck I disagree with some things the President says and does, but I am not holding a press conference and acting like a fool. There is a time and place for everything....this is neither the time or place to act like this.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 I usually agree with you William, but what if you were so morally opposed to a particular war; what if you knew you might have to kill people over something you truly didn't believe in? Would you be able to do it?<< There are other duties besides active combat that he could partake in. Take myself, I went outside the gate rarely and only fired my weapon a few times. I mainly stayed on the base and fixed computers. He could have asked for a non combat job. He could have even filed consiencious objector status. Instead he made a huge deal and in return pretty much committed treason against his boss, the President of the United States. Here is his blog <a href="http://www.thankyoult.org/" target="_blank">http://www.thankyoult.org/</a> I am currently working on LTisanidiot.org
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 One last post. This is the oath all officers must take to recieve their commision "I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)
Originally Posted By mele (And I won't feel particularly sorry for him for whatever punishment he gets because of this. He definitely is disobeying his orders and he did sign up for the job and he wasn't forced to join the military. He deserves what he gets, but I don't think he is necessarily a bad person for standing up for what he thinks is right.)
Originally Posted By mele I think most, if not all soldiers think that they really will be able to adhere to their oath and are excited and proud to do so. Most of us have the best of intentions and think we're up for really serious things and find out that we can't handle it. It's not a good thing, but it's human nature. We aim high and not all of us can make it. William, just curious, when people enlist, is it just a matter of a physical check up and paperwork? What do people have to go through to prove that they might be up for the job? Can people quit during or after boot camp? How does it work? I have no idea.
Originally Posted By ADMIN <font color="#FF0000">Message removed by an administrator. <a href="MsgBoard-Rules.asp" target="_blank">Click here</a> for the LaughingPlace.com Community Standards.</font>
Originally Posted By Beaumandy << He deserves what he gets, but I don't think he is necessarily a bad person for standing up for what he thinks is right.>> Hes an idiot mele. The war is not immoral and it's not illegal. Saddam was immoral, liberating the Iraqis was noble. How anyone can't figure that out is beyond me, but we see this from the left every day.
Originally Posted By Admin >>>see if we can go over 10 posts without an admin.<<< Well it was a nice try anyway!
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<Well it was a nice try anyway!>> That's what happens when you lay down a target... someone inevitably shoots at it.
Originally Posted By gadzuux I see both sides of this. I agree with william's overall point but not his apparent anger. When you sign a contract with the military, you're voluntarily jumping in with both feet. He is not tasked with determining the legitimacy of his orders, but in carrying them out to the best of his ability, and working with his unit so that they operate as a more cohesive whole. So I think he's made a poor decision, and I also think he's grandstanding about it. He expects to be court-martialed and imprisoned, and I believe that HE thinks he's doing what's right. I also think he's showing true courage. He's an "army of one" and has chosen a more difficult road - one that no one before him has chosen. I think his motives are pure and true, but he's young and maybe too callow to understand how petulant and self-aggrandizing he's appearing. He deserves some prison time - but not a lot. Don't ruin the rest of a courageous young man's life because of this impetuous move. In some ways he may be better off in the long run for the choices he's making today. And for the record, I don't think cowardice is any part of this.
Originally Posted By trailsend William, you are a first class guy who has the kind of courage and honor that will carry you through your entire lifetime and spill over to all who know you. William, you're the reason I keep my flag flying in my yard. You're the reason I have the flag decal on my car. You're the reason I feel safe. You're the reason we have freedom. You're the reason I honor the military. You're the reason I trust the military. I can trust you, William, knowing you possess character and the ability to do your job. You don't falter. William, do you realize what kind of man you are? Steadfast, unwavering with the ability to see your commitment to the end. I cannot say enough about you. You lay it all out, your feelings, yet you press on. God bless you over and above all you could ask or think for being the kind of human being you are.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Trailsend - I knew I liked you for a good reason. The above post adds even more respect. William - a agree with what you are saying in needing to follow the chain of command. However, if he is doing what he thinks is right and is willing to pay the consequences, then he is also a very honourable man. This situation is very messy. I tried to enlist when I graduated from University and agreed with the military it was not for me as I have real passion and question authority. If my assignments were aid delivery and peacekeeping missions, I would be happy. However, incursions were not my style. I made an informed decision. Sadly, this guy did not. I am also interested in Mele's question if anyone can answer.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I agree with Mele here. If I were a soldier and I was being asked to participate in a war I found to be morally wrong. I could not participate in senceless murder. I would have to do what I felt morally compelled to do.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 William, just curious, when people enlist, is it just a matter of a physical check up and paperwork? What do people have to go through to prove that they might be up for the job? Can people quit during or after boot camp? How does it work? I have no idea.<< OK lets see if I can sum this up in a few paragraphs. I can only speak for the enlisted side..... When you enlist, you take a enterance test which determines what jobs you are eligible for, then a physical and psychological screening, at that point you see a counseler to decide what job you would like to come in for. Depending on what job you pick, you enlist from anywhere between 2 and 6 years, with infantry grunt work carrying a 2 year commitment and technical skills like network administrator, having a 6 year commitment. After picking your job you sign some paperwork and are given a report date to report to the army. Contrary to popular belief, if you no show this report date, you are not AWOL, so that is one way someone who changes his mind can do so. After joining you do 9 weeks of basic and then your specialty school which ranges from 4 weeks to 1 year. Within your first 6 months in the military they have a Chapter(Discharge term) for "Unable to Adjust to military life" for all those who cannot hang. It is pretty simple to get, or at least it was 10 years ago. Once schooling is done and your 1st 6 months are up, you are pretty much stuck....unless you decide you are a consiencious objector, if you say you are, the army does an invesigation, and for the most part, if your actions and words dont contradict, you will be given a release for that objection. I hope that answers your question. Now if anyone wants to enlist, let me know because the army has a "bounty system" now, anyone who joins and gives my name to recruiter, I get a 1000 dollar bounty. lol. So Beaumandy , now is your chance to join and get me 1000 bucks.
