Originally Posted By mawnck Take a short break from all your TERRIBLY important arguing with Donny about Zimmerman (/sarcasm), and peruse the following: <a href="http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/derivatives/bank_exposure.html" target="_blank">http://demonocracy.info/infogr...ure.html</a>
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Perhaps if you dumb it down for people obviously not as neat as you are.
Originally Posted By mawnck Banks own government. Take your tax money. Extreme measures needed to fix. Zimmerman controversy is a ginned-up distraction and it's working.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck I think everyone should max out their credit cards, and then refuse to pay. That would get the attention of these Human Vipers.
Originally Posted By DyGDisney >>>I think everyone should max out their credit cards, and then refuse to pay.<<< Ooooh, that sounds fun! >>>Banks own government. Take your tax money.<<< I think most of us already realized that; wasn't that the purpose of the Occupy movement? Even the hippies knew! So what happened to the occupy movement? Something does need to be done, but truthfully, I don't think things will get better in the U.S. until we run ourselves completely into the ground and start over. Rome had to fall, unfortunately I think we do too.
Originally Posted By Autopia Deb >>>I think everyone should max out their credit cards, and then refuse to pay.<<< I've got a better idea, move your accounts to smaller local banks and credit unions. You might not get the best rate on your money, but it's better than trashing your credit rating.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>You might not get the best rate on your money, but it's better than trashing your credit rating.<<< I have money in two different credit unions and they are paying way more then any conventional bank. I should keep that a secret, but, it's just among us.
Originally Posted By tiggertoo Put these statements together though: "I think everyone should max out their credit cards, and then refuse to pay...Banks own government." Their solution becomes plain---debtors prison, or worse.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>How would you fix it, mawnck?<< Fix it? Didn't you see the title of this thread? Move your accounts to a credit union, make every possible effort to pay off all your debt ASAP, and have a lot of reliable, trustworthy friends. And vote for people who can't be bought, if you can find any.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 >>How would you fix it, mawnck?<< <Fix it? Didn't you see the title of this thread?> Yes, but throwing up one's hands is not constructive. In post #3 you said "Extreme measures needed to fix" and that's what I was responding to. What follows in post #10 doesn't seem particularly extreme and is all on the individual level, which is fine, but didn't seem like it spoke to "extreme measures needed to fix." I agree that the extraordinary amounts of money in the derivatives market - which is essentially a casino, as the article rightly points out - is a problem. But the measures outlined in #10, while prudent for an individual, won't fix that problem. So what are the extreme measures we need to take as a country? Should derivatives be outlawed? Highly regulated, and if so, how? If they are outlawed, what happens to what's on the books today? I know these are not easy questions. But "we are sooooo screwed" is just a little TOO easy.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I know these are not easy questions. But "we are sooooo screwed" is just a little TOO easy.<< And a little too Kool-Aidy. I'm sorry, I agree there are real problems, and I 100% agree with you, mawnck, that collapse or nationalist takeover can happen here, and that simply thinking we aren't like some other country that falls apart is foolish. But this stuff has the feel of a sophomore dorm where the students wander around talking about the corporations and saying, "Hey man, I've got some stuff you need to read," then passing out badly Xeroxed literature.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Yes, but throwing up one's hands is not constructive.<< There is no "constructive" here. As Ford Prefect told Arthur Dent, "You're right, we might just as well wave the towel at it." >>Should derivatives be outlawed?<< Good start. Can you think of a scenario where that can happen?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 >>Yes, but throwing up one's hands is not constructive.<< <There is no "constructive" here. As Ford Prefect told Arthur Dent, "You're right, we might just as well wave the towel at it."> Really? We should just resign ourselves to the entire world economy crashing down around us and bringing untold misery? >>Should derivatives be outlawed?<< <Good start. Can you think of a scenario where that can happen?> I don't claim to. I'm not asking these questions to be difficult, and I wouldn't ask them of you if you weren't a bright guy and I didn't think you had some ideas on it (I hope, anyway). I agree the situation is a problem, and I admit I'm largely ignorant of how it all works. You seem to know more... again, I hope anyway. I was hoping that someone who pays as much attention as you seem to would at least be conversant with some writers who offer some sort of prescription other than stocking up on canned goods. Something constructive - if not your own ideas, at least constructive ideas of others that might be worth looking at.
Originally Posted By mawnck Actually, this post probably wasn't a good idea in hindsight, since we're busier at work now and I don't really have time to defend it or my rationale behind posting it, at least with the coherence it deserves. But here's a hasty attempt: First of all ... >>Really? We should just resign ourselves to the entire world economy crashing down around us and bringing untold misery?<< Yes. I see no plausible scenario by which it can be avoided. We've blown it. My concern is for what happens afterwards. I find the parallels with Weimar Germany truly frightening, and I don't need to tell you which side is the Nazis. We MUST stop avoiding that word. Hitler was not a supernatural monster, he was just this mentally unstable schmuck politician from the right wing who came to power at the wrong place at the wrong time. That place and time appear to be returning, and we have a bumper crop of mentally unstable schmuck politicians from the right wing. I don't have an answer, and God knows I've been looking for one. How do you break the grip of the noise machine? For instance, I think someone needs to start a serious campaign to "unplug Fox News". By any means necessary. Fairness doctrine, boycot of cable and satellite TV, banning it in rest homes, whatever. At some point, freedom of speech MUST take a back seat to stopping the psychological manipulation of the gullible. Is that elitist? Tough. We must choose the sort of society we want, and do what it takes to get there. And more to the point, do whatever it takes to keep the new Nazis from getting the society they think THEY want. I think the American experiment is failing, and the battle lines, both philosophical and literal, are going to be drawn. And we need to start considering whether the American system (freedom of speech and so forth) is REALLY equipped to deal with it. I hope that made some sense, because I have to get back to work ...........
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <We must choose the sort of society we want, and do what it takes to get there. And more to the point, do whatever it takes to keep the new Nazis from getting the society they think THEY want.> I hate to say it, but substitute "socialists" for "Nazis," and that sounds like a lot of right-wing talk these days. If the "good guys" can do something like ban free speech because it's an "emergency," - are they still the good guys?
Originally Posted By TomSawyer If you ban free speech to save the American experiment, then you kill the American experiment. Maybe the economy has to collapse to change our country. Economic disasters were the impetus for some of the most people-centric changes that this country has been through, including populism, progressivism and FDR's social programs.
Originally Posted By utahjosh < At some point, freedom of speech MUST take a back seat to stopping the psychological manipulation of the gullible. > That's a pretty bold statement. On many accounts.
Originally Posted By WilliamK99 Wow, ban free speech to stop a perceived evil? As many before me have said, who is the true evil person in that scenario?
Originally Posted By mawnck >>If you ban free speech to save the American experiment, then you kill the American experiment.<< Yep. That's pretty much what I'm saying. Did the American experiment take into account the power of 21st century propaganda techniques? Is it any match for them? Are you willing to bet your kids' future on it? >>If the "good guys" can do something like ban free speech because it's an "emergency," - are they still the good guys?<< Why not? Because it's against our "religion"? Isn't it time to admit that we "worship" the Constitution, and that that's not necessarily a good thing? That we are clinging to its principles even when it has failed to prevent the collapse of our society, or a default dictatorship with a few extremely rich sociopaths at the helm? >>Wow, ban free speech to stop a perceived evil? As many before me have said, who is the true evil person in that scenario?<< You'd better give it some thought. It could be that not all humans are smart enough to be permitted total freedom of speech, or a voice into who governs them. The founding principles of our country were enshrined in the Constitution. And I propose that we may (emphasis on the "may") be watching them being proven wrong right now.
