Originally Posted By Mr X Well? Thousands of rapes. Young boys and girls sodomized and violated. Payoffs approaching the BILLIONS to keep mouths shut. Churches declaring bankruptcy for protection against losing (deservedly) their precious assets. The vatican sitting silent...pontificating about how "no other church is real"... Where is the Hauge against THESE monsters? And why, WHY do we still revere and sanctify these criminals (and I'm not ONLY talking about the hundreds of rapists, but the ones who covered it all up as well...kinda like the nazis).
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Interestingly, I find it easy to be comfortable with my faith even while being disgusted with the actions (or inactions) taken by the leaders of my faith. Much the same one might be a proud American but not be proud of what the American government might do. I've known many good priests who are all given second glances these days as they walk past. But, that doesn't mean they aren't still good and decent priests. The sin is that their good names, works and deeds are largely overlooked now.
Originally Posted By jonvn Yes, well, it's just another in a long history of all kinds of nasty behavior...what else is new? If someone is going to be so profoundly deluded into thinking that an organization that has basically persecuted millions throughout its history is somehow OK to hang with, then it's their own fault. I am not surprised by anything this organization does.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip There are a certain percentage of child molesters in any occupation. Teachers, Accountants, Bus Drivers, Priests, etc. I don't know that Priests have a higher rate of abuse than any of the other occupations. In fact they probably have considerably less. There are quite a few cases each year about teachers molesting children in Minnesota. There have been relatively few cases of abuse by priests. The one case I remember that made a big splash in the media a while back occurred over 40 years ago and the priest is now in his 70's. I know there have been others, but the occurrences are relatively rare. Probably the primary difference with abuse by priests as compared to other occupations is that the church hierarchy tried for many years to cover it up. Now they are paying the price for doing so. It doesn't excuse it, but you do have to remember that the Catholic church does not have all the options available to it that any other employer has. A priest is a priest for life. It's not like you can fire them. I'm sure the church felt that by giving the priest a firm "what the hell do you think you were doing?" and transferring him to a new location they were dealing with the problem and thought the abuse would stop. They were wrong. But you must remember that much of this occurred many, many years ago when much less was known about sexual predators than is known today. Mr. X... I'm curious as to the source of your profound hatred of the Catholic church. It really is a bit over the edge IMHO.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Probably the primary difference with abuse by priests as compared to other occupations is that the church hierarchy tried for many years to cover it up< for me this is the crux of the problem -- along with not apologizing up front -- there was some arrogance displayed by cardinals and other leaders that was amazing. My wife has been really turned off by all this - and trust me this was one devout person all her life - all catholic schools, aunt nun, mother was in convent before she left Ireland - etc.. and she is disgusted by the two facts I named above. This does not change my belief in my faith, it does shake my support for those thos ehumans here that are members of the priesthood though. One of my wifes good friends is a priest and this topic comes up all the time- everywhere he goes, and unfortunately, the good priests are paying the prie for the bad ones. but what trippy says is exactly true, this occurs in all professions, all walks of life, the Catholic church has no market cornered on this. I'd also be concerned about all the places you don't here it from.... as far as a priest for life- that's fine, but sequester them to themselves - with ZERo access to children or others...the moving them around bit really was lousy. So one can rip the Catholic faith all they want - if someone thinks this is the only 'organization' as it's been called here with this issue, they are very naive - or have some other axe to grind IMHO. Again, that excuses NONE of the behavior and I have no problem with full prosecution of the perpetrator - from a criminal standpoint - they do not get a pass because they are a priest
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<A priest is a priest for life. It's not like you can fire them.>> Priests can be defrocked, which is what the Bishops should have done (after turning them in to the authorities). To be clear, however, almost none of the molestation cases involved small children, but involved teenage boys instead. Still bad stuff nonetheless. <<There are quite a few cases each year about teachers molesting children in Minnesota.>> What I find especially odd about the school teachers is that most of them are fairly attractive women. Since they don't take vows of celibacy, I have often wondered why these women do not simply get an adult friend. If all they want is sex (and perhaps that is not the case) I think that most of them could find an attractive and willing adult partner very quickly.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<What I find especially odd about the school teachers is that most of them are fairly attractive women.>> Yea... I keep wondering why I never got one of those teachers in Jr. High!!
Originally Posted By jonvn "if someone thinks this is the only 'organization' as it's been called here with this issue" Who said they are? Does that matter?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 yes it does matter -- the catholic church - or archdicoese may be called an organziation, although I still don't think it fits -- but Calholicism is a religious belief - not an organization
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I guess you said it better than I did vbdad. I'm not trying to get in a spitting match because what jonvn or X or anyone else feels is irrelevant to me. I'm not going to stop being Catholic or stop attending the Catholic church. What is getting ignored in this discussion is the billions of dollars in charitable efforts and countless other good deeds done by Catholics. Everything in life would be easier if it was all black and life. But, I have yet to learn how to live that way.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I guess you said it better than I did vbdad. I'm not trying to get in a spitting match because what jonvn or X or anyone else feels is irrelevant to me. I'm not going to stop being Catholic or stop attending the Catholic church. What is getting ignored in this discussion is the billions of dollars in charitable efforts and countless other good deeds done by Catholics. Everything in life would be easier if it was all black and life." Substitute the word attorney for Catholic and you'll get how I feel about all the nonsense being tossed around about attorneys around here lately.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Pass...I know a lot of attorneys and I don't need to say that many of them do good things. (Half of my town is in the law profession in one way or the other). That 40% number just startled me a bit.
Originally Posted By jonvn Well, it's the organization that is doing horrible things to people, and have for centuries. But my question was would it matter if it were the ONLY one doing it? That's no reason.
Originally Posted By jonvn "What is getting ignored in this discussion is the billions of dollars in charitable efforts and countless other good deeds done by Catholics." Hitler did nice things, too. So did Al Capone. What's that have to do with it? As long as you are a member of this church, knowing that they are engaging in this behavior in a systemic manner, then you're supporting that behavior. It would be different if this one priest did something, and one bishop looked the other way, but you have cardinals doing it, and it's all across the world, and it is very common. If you took out the religious aspect of this discussion, then it would very plain that the organization being supported is basically criminal in nature. If people want to continue belonging to it, fine. Keep tithing. They're going to need that money to pay off the kids they raped.
Originally Posted By Eric Paddon That kind of bigoted remark that says that anyone who remains a Catholic "supports" such behavior is the kind of bigoted remark that would do the likes of Hitler proud whenever he came up with his remarks about all the things Jews were guilty of. But I think EVERY atheist in this forum who wants to post this kind of grandstanding garbage should henceforth now consider themselves equally responsible for all the mass murders and killings done in the 20th century by state sponsored atheist governments (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot), not to mention by extension the Jacobin Reign of Terror in 1790s France. Because that's simply the flipside of their bigoted logic in action (and how often it is that we hear the same kind of left wing atheists prattle on with their whitewash of radical Islam with their fear of backlash against Muslims in the face of Islamic terror campaigns? Do they go up to a Muslim and tell him that he's guilty of promoting events like 9/11 because of *his* faith?) This kind of thread only shows once again how bigotry against practicing Christians is the only kind of politically correct sanctioned religious bigotry that exists in our present day society.
Originally Posted By jonvn "That kind of bigoted remark" It's not bigoted. You belong to an organization that is utterly and completely voluntary. This organization has for many years engaged in utterly disgraceful behavior. Do you remain and continue to give them your time, attention and money? "by state sponsored atheist governments " WEll, that's nice, but it's rather a poor analogy, since I am not a member of those governments, did not particpate in those governments, nor did I ever support them. "the same kind of left wing atheists prattle on with their whitewash of radical Islam with their fear of backlash against Muslims in the face of Islamic terror campaigns" Yes, I whitewash radical Islam on a daily basis. "Do they go up to a Muslim and tell him that he's guilty of promoting events like 9/11 because of *his* faith?)" Yes, actually, I do, in that they are not aggressively stating it is wrong and thereby tacitly supporting it. But that also is a poor analogy, in that you can be a member of the Moslem faith and not be a member of a terrorist organization. "bigotry against practicing Christians " Yes, you christians do suffer so in this country, don't you. Be that as it may, no one said anything about Christians, other than there are Christian groups who believe basically the same things as Catholics, yet do not have this history to it, which is being supported by the lay members simply by continuing to be a member. This is not religious bigotry. It's deciding whether or not one should remain with a group who has done their best to protect child rapists within the organization at the expense of the membership itself.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>you can be a member of the Moslem faith and not be a member of a terrorist organization.<<< I think I can also be a catholic without being a pedophile. You also make it sound like Catholics go to worship the Priests, Bishops and Cardinals. It's like throwing the baby away with the bathwater. There are some bad apples within the "organization" but they are also the ones that get the press. They are the only ones you hear about. You don't hear about the thousands that are not pedophiles or any other type of philes. I am not going to move out of the USA because I think George W. is dishonest. I will do everything I can to be sure the he and his supporters are not public leaders for quite a while though. Nor does that make the ideals of this republic unsupportable. I am not going to not buy a Japanese car because I didn't like what they did during WWII. I refuse to be blamed for whatever atrocities happened before I was born or in a position to do anything about it. That means that I will not be blamed for the things that my and your ancesters did to the Native American. I did not do it, I do not agree with it and I had absolutely nothing to do with it. I will not be blamed for slavery, I never owned a slave in my life and do not know anyone that did. I was not responsible for that. Under the same banner, I did not sanction then nor do I sanction now the terrible things done to children by a few bad priests. Nor will I abandon my beliefs because of it. The GOD that I look too did not condone that behavior, a bunch of stupid humans did. Now that it has come to light more and more demands have been made, not just by outsiders, but by catholics as well to bring this situation out in the open and have justice served. I don't think all Germans are bad because Hitler was a power hungry, insane, evil man. It is real easy to armchair quarterback and in hindsight pass judgment on everyone that didn't "fix" the situation at the time. You would have to have been there to even have the slightest notion of what was going on. Otherwise you are just being unjustifiable self righteous a bigot in your own way.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost "unjustifiable self righteous a bigot in your own way." Should have read... unjustifiably self righteous and a bigot in your own way. My kingdom for an edit feature!
