Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder <a href="http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/tsa-officer-shames-teen-for-wearing-leggings--dad-s-got-this--192409505.html" target="_blank">http://shine.yahoo.com/parenti...505.html</a> This alleged episode is getting a lot of online attention the last couple of days. A 15 year old who is the daughter of one of the Boing Boing founders was allegedly told by a male TSA worker to "cover up" because she's only 15 and purportedly wearing what is shown in the photo. Apparently she's wearing a bare midriff top that appears to be somewhat beige or skin color that is fairly low cut, an open shirt over that, and tight black leggings. She was going on a school trip and was at LAX. Her parents coincidentally were coming into LAX from Japan a bit later, and talked to TSA becuse she texted them about it. The girl claims to be humiliated, and the TSA worker is made out to be all sorts of bad. The Boing Boing comments are especially harsh. Many Yahoo comments attempt to defend the TSA worker by saying basically they wouldn't let their 15 year old daughter dress like that, but that's met with derision by others. Should the TSA worker have said something? Is what she's wearing appropriate nowadays? Is it none of anyone's business what she's wearing? The Dad seems particularly put out anyone would have the gall to say anything at all about what she's got on. For me, if the TSA worker had asked if he should say something, I'd say no, don't. However, in my opinion, as a 15 year old, what she's wearing is wildly inappropriate. Yes, girls her age dress this way, but that doesn't make it right. I do think there's a line between 18 years and younger, and it's just burying your head in the sand to think she's not sexualizing herself by wearing this, whether or not she knows it.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan We all like to say that it takes a village, until someone in the village steps up and says what others are thinking. I agree with you, SPP, that I wouldn't encourage the TSA worker to say something. But I also agree that this isn't an okay look for a teenager, though it is something you see out there daily. This look goes well with the drooping show-your-underwear pants some teenage boys wear. At 15, if her parents are fine with the outfit, and clearly they are by whipping up the whole controversy out of all proportion, then it's up to them. But since they asked, I'd say, no, IMHO it ain't a great look.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>However, in my opinion, as a 15 year old, what she's wearing is wildly inappropriate.<< It's only inappropriate because we insist on sexualizing every single thing women do. Skin and curves on women are instantly associated with sex. So we end up with a culture that berates fifteen year olds for wearing something that we find sexual instead of maybe letting women wear what they want and behave as they like without raising an eyebrow.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>a culture that berates fifteen year olds for wearing something that we find sexual<< I think we have a culture that encourages them to wear stuff even more daring and revealing. There's always a push to make young girls dress more provocatively, at younger and younger ages. Television is awash in it, Abercrombie & Fitch cater to it, etc. Now this girl's clothing wasn't the most extreme example, not by a longshot, and I don't know that the TSA person needed to say anything at all. But maybe he's a dad himself and overstepped his bounds. That doesn't mean she should be forced to wear a burka, by the way, before anyone goes there.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan The comments on Boing Boing instantly turn the TSA guy into a predator, filled with impure thoughts and longings. I think it'd be way creepier if he'd have said "Hey, babe, lookin' good!"
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I think we have a culture that encourages them to wear stuff even more daring and revealing. There's always a push to make young girls dress more provocatively, at younger and younger ages. Television is awash in it, Abercrombie & Fitch cater to it, etc.<< We do, and I don't like that, either. I'm just trying to take the conversation back a step. All discussions about modesty, dressing, etc., are predicated on the culture we have that equates female skin with female sexuality. A woman in a bikini is instantly seen as more sexual than a woman in a one-piece bathing suit. Women cannot show skin and not have it be sexual (with one exception I'll mention below). We are so extreme in this that women who are breastfeeding for crying out loud (seriously, is there anything less sexual than a woman using her body to feed her child?) are often told to cover up. If a man plays basketball and wears shorter shorts (John Stockton-style), no one thinks anything of it except perhaps he's old fashioned. If a woman wears shorter shorts, she's instantly being sexual, alluring, provocative, etc. We comment on its appropriateness, we determine if it's okay or not okay based on the length, the age of the wearer, etc. And all of this happens because Female Skin = Sexuality in American culture. The exception that proves the rule? How do we treat obese women who show too much skin in public? We shame them. We're disgusted by them. We make cruel jokes at their expense. We put so much pressure out there that perfectly ordinary women feel the need to wear shorts and t-shirts with their bathing suits. All because when we see an obese or overweight woman in, say, a bikini, we're disgusted and outraged because she didn't meet our expectations of sexuality. She's breaking the rules that say skin = sex; she's showing skin, but we don't necessarily find her attractive. What's never a part of the conversation? What if that's just what she wants to wear because it's comfortable? We expect women to conform to our preconceived notions of modesty and sexuality.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 I think that's right on the money, ecdc. While I don't like encouraging kids to be sexualized at younger and younger ages either, I also think that just as every touch is not a sexual touch, and not every comment is a sexual comment, not every outfit that shows some skin = sexual. There's a fine line sometimes, true. But it wasn't this TSA guy's place to order her to "cover up."
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<But it wasn't this TSA guy's place to order her to "cover up.">> Bingo.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf Hmmm, this is a difficult one. While I personally think it is unwise for an underaged girl to dress in such a way that invites men to check her out, that is for her and her parents to decide, not a TSA agent. And is it just me? I don't think her outfit is that outrageous. But I spend a fair amount of time in Italy where girls dress a lot more provactively so I guess these things don't even phase me anymore.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>What's never a part of the conversation? What if that's just what she wants to wear because it's comfortable? We expect women to conform to our preconceived notions of modesty and sexuality.<< I agree with your points overall, ecdc. But I also think that there's always going to be debate about what is appropriate wear for various settings. I think we can agree that what some people wear to a nightclub for a night of dancing and drinking is usually not appropriate wear for an office. It isn't always just about wearing what's most comfortable -- sometimes we dress to impress others, to make a statement, sometimes to attract attention. And part of all of that is also the age at which those various clothing options are worn. Girls in particular are taught what is beautiful, what is sexy, what is alluring from very early ages. Most of it comes from images they see in media, the toddlers and tiaras crowd, and peers who parrot back a lot of that stuff and reinforce it. If it was purely a case of free will vs. some draconian prohibition, of course I'm going to side with free will. But with free will comes understanding that certain outfits will cause reactions, and this is where the parents are supposed to step in and offer guidance. Like I said, this was not the most revealing outfit out there, it's actually fairly standard issue for high school girls today. Bt there is stuff more revealing being worn and it has little to do with comfort.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I mean, look at who the biggest headline grabbers are right now -- Kardasians, for pete's sake (and before that, Paris Hilton). Teenagers try to emulate that look, because it seems like the fast track to wealth and celebrity. It's not like they got famous for curing cancer.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I think we can agree that what some people wear to a nightclub for a night of dancing and drinking is usually not appropriate wear for an office.<< If I was in an office and I told a female coworker to "cover up," I'd rightly be investigated for sexual harassment, because the HR department would (correctly) realize that I'm relating to my coworker on a sexual level. I'm looking at her and seeing skin. I'm making her a sexual object. That's what TSA did with this girl. That's what we increasingly do with younger and younger girls when we freak out about what they are wearing. I've seen Facebook posts of pictures of little girl's clothing that's supposedly "immodest" and people are predictably outraged. The only people who are disgusting in that conversation are the one's who think the way a five year old dresses is "immodest."
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost <<But it wasn't this TSA guy's place to order her to "cover up.">> Which is what this thread is really about and the answer is absolutely not. No matter what we hold as moral beliefs it is not anyone's place to project their beliefs on others. Isn't that what this whole teabagger/dictated morality fight is all about? Someone else deciding what is best for people other than themselves? Having been the Father of two girls, I can easily say that I don't know what parents are thinking. I don't understand why parents think it's OK to let there young daughters go out looking like a 25 cent hooker. How they actually encourage women to think that they're only worth comes from being sexual. However, a stranger deciding that it is their place to judge others is way past the line. It's so far over the line that you can't even see the line from there. He was completely wrong to have said anything no matter how much some of us may agree with his assessment. Just not our business.
Originally Posted By Terminus 25 cent hooker? Pretty low self-worth, but proud enough to not give it away, I guess...
Originally Posted By mawnck "Don't you call me a two-bit hooker or I'll hit you with this bag of quarters."
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "However, in my opinion, as a 15 year old, what she's wearing is wildly inappropriate." You can't be serious. Is she revealing too much ankle?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>That's what we increasingly do with younger and younger girls when we freak out about what they are wearing.<< How about when moms put toddlers out there for pageants and as part of their routine, they emulate bumping and grinding type moves? The parents seem to find it adorable, I think it's gross and wrong. It must be my problem.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "You can't be serious. Is she revealing too much ankle?" Serious as can be.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder >>It must be my problem.<< No, it's gross.< Okay, so at what point does it stop being gross and become permissible to wear bare midriffs and show cleavage? 15?
