Originally Posted By KongKongFuey This time outside Seattle. When are we going to get serious about the proliferance of guns and the destruction of lives they cause. You conservatives are doing a great disservice to all of us by endorsing the widespread legalization of guns. Tea party, NRA, social conservatives and gun makers and gun sellers are to blame. I guess nothing has changed since Sandy Hook. If that won't wake people up, then nothing will. I GIVE UP. Conservatives are too paranoid and selfish and liberals have no spine to affect real change.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, duckling, but some of us disagree with your proposed solution. It's not as simple as taking guns away from everyone. The real problem is with unbalanced individuals who want to kill others. It's impossible to totally control them. There are many cases where guns come in handy to save lives, too, when used for self defense against criminals. But we've already been down this road many times before...
Originally Posted By oc_dean I'm totally with you KKF. Australia (where I live now) put it's foot down after the Port Arthur massacre in 1996. It's been tough here since then to have guns ... willy nilly. The 2nd Amendment had it's role when the country was new. It's a far different place now, and clearly obsolete! To protect it, as is written - in 1791 ... into the present ... is ludicrous! A fetish, I think it is!
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I've given up. Nothing will ever be done... the gun lobby in this country is too strong. One of many areas where majority opinion makes no difference, but money does. Those areas seem to be expanding day by day.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf When gun owners aren't responsible, they need to be held responsible. In this case, whoever's gun it was that the boy used needs to be held accountable. If this is done consistently then gun owners will be more careful about securing their weapons and fewer of these incidents will occur. And if gun owners continue to demonstrate that they are irresponsible and organizations such as the NRA continue to dismiss them as anomalies, then the solution is clear: we need fewer gun owners. Our position as a country is that everyone should be allowed to have guns unless they demonstrate they shouldn't have them. This means something bad has to happen before you lose your guns. Other civilized countries take the opposite position: You don't get to own guns unless you can prove that you need one and are responsible enough to own one. This seems like a rational approach to me. What we have in our country is utter insanity.
Originally Posted By KongKongFuey The president, if he were strong, would use executive order to affect real change. He has to bypass the Constitution, federal courts and Congress since this is a national emergency/crisis. Forget the gun lobby and second amendment and stand up and be a man like Lincoln. Lincoln suspended parts of the constitution using crisis/national emergency justification which was very controversial. A very unpopular person for his time but he did what he knew to be righteous. Emancipation and disregarding habeus corpice was lawful during crisis. But I guess kids killing each other at school on any given day with guns will continue because the president is worried about being unpopular and jeered in the media. Too bad because the future generations would have looked favorably on him. Executive order is the only way to do something real. Another background check here, another penalty for unlocked guns there is practically worthless. The order has to be shocking and severe because no congressional law will ever be meaningful enough since congress will always be a mix of gun lovers and haters and the neutrals.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Sincere question: Growing up in rural areas, I saw shotguns hanging on the back of pickup trucks all the time. I knew where my dad's shotgun and 22 were located, and I new never to touch them. We did not have any murders, and very very few accidents, from these guns being around. What's different today? What has caused those changes?
Originally Posted By KongKongFuey 1Media coverage/copy cat/en vogue 2Cultural change on raising children 3Higher population
Originally Posted By ecdc That's a good question. First, do we have data that supports your experience? I know gun violence has actually decreased a little bit over the last five years, but what was it like in the '70s and '80s? Is it just a perception that things are much worse today, or is it actually true? That asked, I'd say we have a hyper-gun culture today. I think this goes fare beyond the numbers of owning guns or using guns. I suspect Americans might even use guns less today than they did 50 years ago. And yet...we have this bizarre culture that is worshipful toward guns. I can't quite explain it, but it's there and it's genuinely creepy. I've actually come around to the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument more than I used to. I really don't know how much it is about the gun than it is about a deeply disturbed, warped gun culture we have in this country. (I still think there's reasonable limits to be put on guns.) You know what it reminds me of, when we talk about this shift in guns? It reminds of reading about the South before the Civil War. After the Revolution, the South treated slavery as a kind of necessary evil. But over time, as the North slowly abolished it and cotton became king, the South's attitude changed. It went from "slavery is just this thing we kinda do" to "slavery is literally the highest order of living." They became worshipful toward the institution of slavery, they convinced themselves that it was the best way to live and they reacted with apoplectic rage coupled with childish fits anytime anyone dared malign their beloved "peculiar institution." I see gun owners much the same way today. It just used to be that guns...were. We had them to hunt. Cops had them. But somewhere, somehow, a lot of gun owners convinced themselves that guns were not just a benign tool for hunting, but quite literally the greatest object they could possibly possess. Everything is viewed through this lens of guns as the ultimate good. Less crime? It's because of guns. More crime? We need more guns! School shooting? We need guns in schools! A feminist is threatened with a gun if she speaks? Let's load that auditorium with guns! Guns are never, ever the problem, they are always the solution.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Excellent post, ecdc. This is gun fetishism that we are seeing today. I knew gun owners when I was a kid, but their gun ownership didn't define their lives. And I think that RT is right - the NRA is too powerful and their fear mongering so effective that even mentioning anything that looks like registration or recording of ownership transfers is impossible. This toxic gun culture is one of the reasons that I hope my daughter emigrates from the US when she is old enough.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Okay, I'll agree that there is an overconfidence on guns to protect us. I'm sure you could call it worship for some, but I don't think it's a large percentage of people who fit that bill. Anyhow..what has caused this change? Is it the violence in TV, movies, and games? Is it the 24hour news cycle and internet constantly broadcasting shootings?
Originally Posted By Ivan55 The first thing Hitler did when he got himself some power was take guns from his people. Didn't work out so well for his 1000 year bid to have a flourishing country. You try to take my gun and I will defend my right. YOU HAVE TO FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I'll agree that there is an overconfidence on guns to protect us.<< Actually, I don't think it's even that well defined. If that were all that's going on, it'd be relatively easy to educate people (the statistics are very clear: owning a gun makes you far more likely to be the victim of gun violence). It's not just confidence in guns for protections, it transcends that to a confidence in guns...period. So when you talk to gun owners, guns are never, ever the problem. There's never a situation where they don't belong. There's never a time when a gun isn't the right answer. It's much more of a feeling than a definable position. The gun has been transformed in American culture from an ordinary thing that can be used for good or bad, and turned into the ultimate object. How else do you explain these small towns that pass legislation *requiring* citizens to own guns? >>Is it the violence in TV, movies, and games?<< I am deeply skeptical. >>Is it the 24hour news cycle and internet constantly broadcasting shootings?<< I think this is closer, but I don't think it's broadcasting shootings. I think it's a culture of fear perpetuated by a ratings-driven news media. The world we live in is incredibly safe. It's safer in almost every measurable way than it was fifty years ago, 100 years ago. Nearly all types of violent crime is down. Children especially are safer than ever. And yet, this week, thousands of communities will be hosting "Trunk-or-Treats" so their children don't have to go out and knock on their neighbor's doors. Even though the concept of razor blades in candy, poisoned candy, or kidnapped children is a myth. Halloween is the poster child for how safe our country is and how people are good to children. (Can you imagine the media freak out if a child really were kidnapped or poisoned? Nancy Grace would have to hire a second person just to wipe the foam off her mouth.) Yet, everyone's convinced themselves the world is a teeming disaster filled with the NRA's absurd "good guys" and "bad guys."
Originally Posted By ecdc I'll add, even though everyone is probably sick to death of me bringing up this angle, the gun issue is a deeply racist one in this country. Don't believe me? Look at how things turned out for those Cliven Bundy supporters who pointed high-powered firearms at federal agents. Now think if the protestors in Ferguson, MO had done that. A big part of this comes from white flight and white fear of black Americans. Most gun owners will never admit this, but when they think about owning a gun for home protection, who exactly do you think they picture breaking into their homes? I'll bet you a Monte Cristo that 9 times out of 10, it's a person of color. A white guy with a gun is a patriot defending his family. A black guy with a gun is a thug.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <It's not just confidence in guns for protections, it transcends that to a confidence in guns...period. So when you talk to gun owners, guns are never, ever the problem. There's never a situation where they don't belong. There's never a time when a gun isn't the right answer. It's much more of a feeling than a definable position.> I get the feeling that this is just an over-reaction to the thought (rational or not) that the guns might be taken away.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Anyhow..what has caused this change?>> <<Look at how things turned out for those Cliven Bundy supporters who pointed high-powered firearms at federal agents. Now think if the protestors in Ferguson, MO had done that. A big part of this comes from white flight and white fear of black Americans.>> I'll take it one step further. It's not just the white guys being scared of dark skinned people. It's white guys feeling like they're not in charge anymore. It makes total sense. A few decades ago, white guys still called the shots in practically everything. Women didn't have the professional clout they do now (although they still make less than male counterparts in the same professions with equivalent education and experience) and were mostly stay-home moms caring for families. Minorities didn't have the educational and professional opportunities they have now, thanks to Affirmative Action (although much work still needs to be done to eliminate institutional racism). And where was gay marriage? Or simply being openly gay? Everyone was in the closet way back, for fear of being rejected by all of society. That has dramatically changed. So white guys have more competition now at every turn. They're still in control of government, but those numbers are shrinking. They're still in control of businesses, but not to the same extent as in the Mad Men days. They're still in control of the media, but the internet has wrestled a good chunk of that control away, so they don't completely control the message anymore. White guys are no longer being guaranteed high paying work-at-the-same-factory-for-life jobs simply for being born into a middle class white family. They now have to compete with women, minorities, gays, and undocumented immigrants for low paying jobs that barely pay the bills. They're far worse off on average than their fathers and grandfathers were, which I believe has transformed them into feeling like victims, even though they still have it better on average than everyone else. Carrying a gun around makes them feel empowered. They feel as though the world is out to get them, that minorities are out to get them -- take their jobs, take their rights -- and they don't want to feel like a victim. So having weaponry around makes them feel less like a victim and more like a force to be reckoned with.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<You try to take my gun and I will defend my right. YOU HAVE TO FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT>> See? Very angry white guy.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 A deluded one, too, if he thinks anyone in any position of power is talking about taking anyone's guns away. They can't even pass modest measures that have 80% support among the public and even majority support among rank-and-file NRA members, like closing the gun show loophole for background checks or limiting the size of ammo clips, because of the fetishists.
