Originally Posted By Darkbeer OK, from today's LA Times... <a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/cal/la-me-prop816-2008nov16,0,4500315,full.story" target="_blank">http://www.latimes.com/news/lo...ll.story</a> >>Gays and blacks A running theme during the Los Angeles demonstration was the role of African Americans in the passage of the anti-gay-marriage measure. An exit poll showed that black voters favored the proposition by a ratio of more than 2 to 1. Again and again, speakers asked the crowd not to blame the black community. "We did not lose the fight because of African Americans," said Lorri L. Jean, 51, chief executive of the L.A. Gay & Lesbian Center. << OK, I can do the math... Exit polls had it from 67% to 70% of African Americans voted for Prop 8. <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/05/MNH413UTUS.DTL" target="_blank">http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...UTUS.DTL</a> African-Americans make up about 6% of the opulation in California, and based on what I have read, they voted in a higher percentage that most other groups. So taking those into consideration, you have about a 4% swing towards the passage of Propostion 8, the same basic amount of the passage of the measure! Why try and claim they didn't do it??? Why not protest against the Orthodox Jews, that supported Prop 8??? <a href="http://www.forward.com/articles/14521/" target="_blank">http://www.forward.com/articles/14521/</a> >>Proposition 8, which calls for amending California’s state constitution to define marriage as solely between a man and a woman, was adopted despite intense efforts by non-Orthodox Jewish clergy and activists to defeat it. At the same time, Orthodox leaders took a strong public stand in support of the measure, aligning themselves with the Mormon Church, which spearheaded the Yes on 8 campaign.<< Or how about fundalmentailst Muslims that actually believe in Capital Punishment for those who participate in Gay activities... Seems to me to be too much "PC", avoid offending SOME groups that have been shown to vote FOR Prop 8. Heck, about 1 in 3 voters in California that chose President-Elect Obama also voted Yes on 8. Why do SOME folks have to deny that???
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Why did many people vote for Prop 8, besides the homophobes? Because a lot of blacks believed the lies being propagated about Prop 8. We've been through this already, if you were paying attention. In particular: - the topic of marriage, much less gay marriage, is NOT required to be taught in schools despite claims to the contrary. When the state school superintedenteven said that, he was called a liar and attacked as a "liberal". Further proof that the California Education Code doesn't provide for it was met with silence, but the damage had been done. - churches would be forced to marry gays, when nothing could be further from the truth. More fearmongering. The Mormons and Catholics figured this would scare the blacks, and they were right. Yes on 8 has no law on their side, so they lied instead.
Originally Posted By Darkbeer And why did MANY Speakers at the Pro-Gay Marriage LIE about the effect the African-American vote had on the measure????
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains They did not lie about the effect - What they said it wasn't because of the African-American community that this was passed - While yes it is true many more voted for it - they didn't campaign for it, lie to get it passed. They simpley voted based on those lies and the fear it caused. Darkbeer I really don't know why it is you find it necessary to try and make this a racial thing... Prop 8 passed simply because of lies put out by those in favor of 8 - Many of which were religous groups - with nearly half the money (42%+) coming from the Mormon church! Here is a perfect example of this! <<Among about half a dozen Proposition 8 supporters at Los Angeles City Hall was Dan Burton, 50, a retired air traffic controller, who held a sign that read, "Gays hate God. Romans 1:18-32," a reference to biblical passages denouncing wickedness and debauchery. "There's two sides to every story," Burton said. "Most people in this country don't want gay marriage, because it's biologically, culturally and religiously perverse.">>
Originally Posted By Darkbeer Why do the Liberals make it a Mormon/Conservative thing? Based on the California Presidential vote, less than 40% voted for McCain... So there is no way you can claim that ALL of them caused Prop 8 to pass, and I know from PERSONAL experience that not EVERY person in the "conservative" group voted FOR Prop 8. SOME did vote against it. Now, did a majority of "The conservative group" vote for Prop. 8, while I have no exact polls, I think it is pretty obvious that most did. Let's me be conservative, and say 36% of the 39% voted for Prop 8 (10% saying no), that still leaves over 15% of "non-conservatives" that voted FOR Prop. 8. And why is the Pro-Gay Marriage making it a "Religious" thing??? And AVOIDING the "PC" issue???
Originally Posted By avromark Let's just blame the personal computer okay? All I can say is that for everything whether it's a proposition or an idea will always have nay sayers, and supporters. I could give away a free bowl of soup and someone will complain (wrong flavour/quality/whatever). For me even if I didn't like soup I wouldn't complain about it, since it would benefit others. Maybe a law passed that said all first born children should be given everything and all other children should be punished. I'll bet you there would be at least one second or later born that would actually support this law. Gotta love it.
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains <<And why is the Pro-Gay Marriage making it a "Religious" thing???>>> Probably because it was the religious community that put out most of the ads. The Mormon church has shouldered the biggest part of the blame because they came out saying yes they were supporting it and they were encourging their members to send money to support it - reading letters suggesting them to do so during services - knowing most of the members would see it as something the Prophet wanted - Then some went public... telling why they did it and how much they were donating (someone posted news articles on this). While other Churches did the simular things they kept it more hush-hush in the public. Other than commercials sponcered by the knights of columbus I couldn't tell you another group that put out the lie-campaigns. I personally never thought it was a conservative thing - I have always thought it was because of the fear and lies spread through the false ads played over and over on TV! Truely - if both sides had run an honest campaign - and it still passed there would still be people mad and sad - but at least their feelings would be based on honesty of a state - not on a Hate campaign. The seriousness of the lies was evident on the wed or thurs after the election while watching The View - Sherry Shepherd was totally convinced if it had not passed her pastor would go to jail if he said homosexuality was wrong. Whoopi Goldberg tried to explain to her that wasn't true - but Sherry wouldn't believe it.
Originally Posted By nemopoppins Sure, there are people and opinions of all kinds, but this assault on the rights of gay people to marry who they choose was generally carried out by religious groups that exploited their members' faith by lying and inciting fear. I'm sure Darkbeer can come up with some secular groups that supported H8, but they'll surely have been insignificant or have religious ties. What PC issue? What frustrates me is that those of us who support gay marriage are supposed to be so PC and not call religion for the attack, the deception and the discrimination. Although it is very ambiguously written, post 5 seems to assume some sort of conservative/religious or liberal/not religious alignment, and that this supports the point that anti-gay marriage is not a religious thing. Well, it is pretty obvious that religion has pretty much taken over the conservative side. They were even ready to put someone in the White House that wouldn't mind sending America back to the dark ages, encouraging creationism. Incidentally, because of this I do feel sorry for fiscal conservatives, even if their methods are unfair and don't work, who have to accept that. And I would be safe to attest, from personal experience, that atheists are pretty much aligned with the liberal side of politics. But, I really don't think you can make a generalization that liberals are not religious. I'll honor Darkbeer with some percentages here. Let's say that 60% of Californians consider themselves to be religious and 60% of Californians consider themselves to be liberals. That still leaves at least 20% of Californians that are liberals who are religious. So, religious liberals account for 5% more than Darkbeer's calculated (lol) non-conservatives. It is a religious thing.
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>Because a lot of blacks believed the lies being propagated about Prop 8. We've been through this already, if you were paying attention.<< .. And I guess my topic - which covers this issue - got past up: <a href="http://mb.laughingplace.com/MsgBoard-T-101760-P-1.asp" target="_blank">http://mb.laughingplace.com/Ms...-P-1.asp</a> Twisting Obama's words to make it sound he was in favor of this proposition .. when in fact, he said "it is unnecessary." But the robocalls that went to African-American homes helped do the damage!
Originally Posted By oc_dean The fact is .. the Mormons did NOT run an honest campaign! As far as I'm concerned .. they have blood on their hands! And in the end ... when this is all said and done with .... this is all going to backfire on them in a huge way .... As this subject HAS poured into the national scene. I won't doubt that because of Prop 8 passing ... it pushes gay marriage on the table for the future of the country on a national and FEDERAL level earlier. So .. lets say ... it would take 50 to 70 years to become nationwide and federally recognized ... this uproar will shave off some 10 to 20 years ... because people will not tolerate any injustices forever!
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains For some reason Darkbeer is trying to put this off on the black voters - <<Exit polls had it from 67% to 70% of African Americans voted for Prop 8.>> He has brought this up a couple times I believe now - trying to pull the focus away from religion. Not sure why this is! I believe the prob passed because of religion. It was religion that put out the lies and fear. It was religion that was trying to say my marriage would some how be less or tainted because Homosexual couples could be married too. It is religion that put out stuff like this from Darkbeers first link - <<<<Among about half a dozen Proposition 8 supporters at Los Angeles City Hall was Dan Burton, 50, a retired air traffic controller, who held a sign that read, "Gays hate God. Romans 1:18-32," a reference to biblical passages denouncing wickedness and debauchery. "There's two sides to every story," Burton said. "Most people in this country don't want gay marriage, because it's biologically, culturally and religiously perverse.">>
Originally Posted By mawnck >>So taking those into consideration, you have about a 4% swing towards the passage of Propostion 8, the same basic amount of the passage of the measure!<< You're assuming a 100% turnout? >>Why do SOME folks have to deny that???<< Confused by all the smoke?
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Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt It's interesting to me that blacks get singled out in discussions on this topic without examining their vote in the context of their fundamental religious beliefs. It simply illustrates how little Darkbeer knows about the black community.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder In other, more sane news: <a href="http://www.lbreport.com/news/nov08/prop8cop.htm" target="_blank">http://www.lbreport.com/news/n...8cop.htm</a> Gays and lesbians acknowledged that their March cost the Long Beach P.D. $89K in overtime, so they're going to try and raise money to cover the costs.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt ^^That's a great story. Darkbeer, you might want to read this: <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/16/MN5R1435T4.DTL&hw=gay&sn=003&sc=420" target="_blank">http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...3&sc=420</a> >>But demographers say the focus on one race not only disregards the complexity of African American identity but also overlooks the most powerful predictors affecting views on same-sex marriage: religion, age and ideology, such as party affiliation. Prop. 8's racial fallout raises the question of how the groundbreaking multiracial support of a presidential candidate could coincide with the racial scapegoating now following a failed state ballot campaign. "It's just a shame to see the sort of coalition that came out behind Obama, and then you come back to California and you see white gays say 'black people cost us the election,' " said David Binder, a white gay San Franciscan and a polling expert who spent the past two years working for the Obama campaign. "It bothers me that people look at the race of the people involved rather than factors that are more explanatory."<<
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka I'm wondering if DB wants us to create some threads where we bash black people?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder There weren't enough gay marriage threads. He needed another.
