Originally Posted By Mr X I saw this posted somewhere else, but wow...deserves a topic all its' own! <a href="http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/11/11/baptizing.dead.jews.ap/index.html" target="_blank">http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US...dex.html</a> So, lemme get this straight. It's not okay to say ANYTHING bad about mormonism, because that means you are "attacking" them and persecuting them and all that, no matter what horrible and offensive things they do... BUT it's perfectly okay for them to spit in the face of every other religion by performing questionable and offensive rituals in the name of others AGAINST THE EXPLICIT REQUEST of other religious groups? I can say for a fact, of all my dead relatives and friends not a single ONE of them would approve of this. Not a one. 100% certainty here. I can visualize my staunchly Catholic Grandmothers rolling over in rolling over in their graves just thinking about it. It's okay for the mormons to be offensive, in this life AND the next, but if we DARE to criticize what they do we are attacking and oppressing them? Yeah, right. I get the picture. The smug is overpowering.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***"We don't think any faith group has the right to ask another to change its doctrines," Wickman said. "If our work for the dead is properly understood ... it should not be a source of friction to anyone. It's merely a freewill offering."*** Stay away from my grandma, you cultists! SHE doesn't want this! So what right do you bigots have to do it anyway???? That'd be MY personal sentiment (and is, of course)...I can't imagine what the Holocaust victims' families are going through with this utter offense against their beliefs. CMPaley, DLDoug, other highly religious folk...how do you guys all feel about being posthumously baptized into a cult? (perhaps they're okay with it, I dunno...would be interesting to hear the thoughts of highly religious LP posters here)
Originally Posted By Mr X ***In May, the Vatican ordered Catholic dioceses worldwide to withhold member registries from Mormons so that Catholics could not be baptized.*** And yet they worked hand in hand (and dollar for dollar, or tried anyway) with the mormons in their fight against gay happiness. Strange bedfellows indeed. And, as if religion weren't dumb enough, are you religious folks actually FOLLOWING this stuff?? I really have to wonder. Am I the ONLY person on Earth who sees how ridiculous ALL of this really is?
Originally Posted By DAR My faith is between me and God. That's where it has been for years and that's where it will continue to be.
Originally Posted By beamerdog How do you find out if someone related to you has been posthumously (sp?) baptized?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***My faith is between me and God. That's where it has been for years and that's where it will continue to be.*** And apparently DAR, if that doesn't work out for you the mormons will be there to take care of you after you're dead (like it or not). Personally, I'm down with it myself (I always hedge), but I can totally understand why some ACTUALLY religious folks would find this despicable.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Whoops. I just posted my thread about this. Didn't see this.
Originally Posted By LadyKluck Baptism for the dead is the main reason for me leaving the LDS church when I was 16. I can't even explain how enormously bothered (not to mention creeped out) by it. My aunt did baptisms for my grandparents and great grandparents (both devout Catholics) and I got soooo upset with her because I know exactly how grandpa felt about us joining the church. Poor man is probably STILL rolling in his grave!
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder I just can't get over this. The arrogance of it all. I've never heard of such a thing. There is no defending this practice.
Originally Posted By Mr X They actually baptize people they KNOW, people they fully understand were devout in other faiths!? Wow, that just takes it to a whole new level in my mind! Amazing that the Catholic church is so amazingly friendly with them...I just can't comprehend this, given how important Catholic sacraments are to them. I guess the Catholics don't care about the sacraments that much. Wow.
Originally Posted By LadyKluck The one time I did it they just read names off a list - I had no clue who I was being baptized for (I mean personally I didn't know them), but yes, my aunt did the baptisms herself for my grandparents. Just so very wrong IMHO!!
Originally Posted By ecdc The thing is, it's the disrespect that's so incredible to me. Personally, it's all fiction, so I really don't care what baptism you believe in. I'm not really sure why Jews are so outraged - if you don't believe in Mormonism then what do you care what they do? But, for their own reasons, they do care and they've asked them to stop. Mormons should have enough courtesy to oblige them. Mormons demand respect from others. They whine and moan (as evidenced from some of the discussions here) when they don't get it. But they're unwilling to give it. It's astounding.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder You know, when jonvn and X where throwing phrases like "fairy tales", etc., criticizing religion and people's belief in God, I took exception, and it made for some rather vicious times around here, the general attitude of which spilled over into other areas and now we don't see jonvn here anymore. Again. Religion is an intensely personal thing and that should be respected. However, when a religion, such as the Mormon one, insists on imposing its value system on the rest of us, not keeping it within its own boundaries, that makes for an entire new set of rules. They can go off and be as wacky as they want on their own, wearing the underwear, talking to prophets like you'd talk to your corporate office back East on a videoconference, etc., but when the invoke their "freedom of religion" to come uninvited into my house, then the gloves come off. First is was Prop 8, which WILL go down to defeat in the courts and I WILL gloat like a son of a bitch, to this type of thing, where messing with the living isn't bad enough, now they have to go into the grave and molest the dead. Weirdos, all of them. It sounds as if this practice has been around a while. Maybe a lot of people don't care, and truth be told, I don't care what they do about the dead in my family because religion isn't the same for me as for others. My grand dad probably took a shovel and whomped a Mormon in the face at the Pearly Gates if this has happened to him. His own belief system got him to heaven, not some whack job weirdo in women's underwear who stole his name of a genealogy roll somewhere (his words). But the absolute lack of respect for other intensely religious people is beyond the pale. Never bother again to tell me Mormons have respect for other religions. Never tell me again their goals are not the same as radical Muslims. This is sickening.
Originally Posted By DAR I don't really think I'm going to have worry about any Mormon influx here. Though I did see a Scientology Church in a mini-mall, that was weird.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>It sounds as if this practice has been around a while.<< It did indeed originate with Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, Illinois. It's basically a simple-minded explanation to reconcile the Biblical demand that everyone must be baptized but the fact that many, many people die without the opportunity. The great gift of Joseph Smith, and what garnered him so many followers, was his ability to make the world around them come alive and have relevance. So no matter where the Mormons moved to, there was some kind of intense Biblical relevance. Joseph Smith was from New York. He said the hills were teeming with the writings of ancient peoples. They didn't just live in Jerusalem, they lived here, right where you and I live. They go on Zion's Camp, a trek through Ohio and Illinois to Missouri. They uncover some skeleton bones. They're just not deceased indians (it was in reality a Hopewell burial mound, very common in that area) - they're prophets and characters who warred with one another. In Illinois, Joseph gets some Egyptian mummies that contain what we now know to be common Egyptian funerary texts. But before people knew that, Joseph Smith said they were the writings of Abraham and the revelations received by Moses. The Garden of Eden was actually in Missouri, Smith said. On at on it goes. Time and time again Joseph Smith made the common uncommon for his followers. At the time, it was very powerful. But today, it's frankly just a bit sad that people still believe in such fantasy when we know exactly what these things are and that they had nothing to do with what Joseph said they were. I bring this up because baptism for the dead is exactly the same thing. In the 19th century, the idea that their ancestors wouldn't burn in hell forever just because they died without being baptized energized and invigorated Joseph's followers. But today, it's just sad that there's not enough critical thinking in Mormonism to see the practice for the childish thinking it really is.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I wonder what the feeling by Mormons would be if my faith told me to dance the funky chicken on the graves of the dead of all other faiths to make sure their souls were right with God. Would they calm down if I said, "If our work for the dead is properly understood ... it should not be a source of friction to anyone. It's merely a freewill offering." Somehow, I think not.
Originally Posted By DAR <<I wonder what the feeling by Mormons would be if my faith told me to dance the funky chicken on the graves of the dead of all other faiths to make sure their souls were right with God.>> Mine tells me Do the Hustle, do do do do do do do do Do the Hustle.
