Originally Posted By Mr X Serious question here... We've just seen the gigantic stimulus package pass the Congress easily, without so much as a single Republican vote in the House and a mere 3 votes in the Senate. My first question is, were those three votes even necessary? Did the bill require 60 votes, or just 50? And, beyond that, what I'm wondering about and asking here is, just how much power do the Right Wingers really have at this point? We always hear about this "filibuster" thing, but how often can they use it? Is this a tool they "could" use but don't? If the Republicans were REALLY so against the bill recently on the table, did they have any real power to actually stop it? And, is the Senate the last bastion for Republicans to actually put a stop to ANYTHING that any Democrats want to do? Serious question here. Because it seems to me the Democrats can pass pretty much whatever they want through the house, Republican votes be damned, and even if a few Democrats don't like it it doesn't matter. Am I right on this? And if so, why did the Democrats make so many tax cut concessions to the Republicans on this bill? Looking for some serious remedial info here...I just want to learn. I'm very curious about how, EXACTLY, the power structure works in Washington. A link would be fine, if anyone knows of one (discussion would be cool too).
Originally Posted By hopemax This is where we get to say the Democrats are a spineless group of pansies. The 60 votes were necessary, only to get cloture and avoid the filibuster. Cloture means that the Senate agrees to limit debate for 30 additional hours and then vote. Normally, there are no rules for how long debate can continue in the Senate. It is unlimited. Cloture, puts and end stamp on debate. Filibuster is just an informal term for when a Senator or group of Senators extends the debate period to avoid a vote. The Democrats seem to be terrified of the word. The GOP, tried to eliminate the darn thing a few years back, but they certainly have no qualms about using it as a weapon. Frankly, all I think that needs to happen for the GOP to lose everything except that darn 20% that thought George W. Bush was doing a good job, is for a few shots of GOP Senators reciting the phone book, or their Grandma's recipe for pecan pie when American after American receives their layoff notice. Bipartisanship is something that should be at least attempted. But if one side is going to act like a spoiled child because they didn't get their way, be the grown up. DO what you think NEEDS to be done, for the good of the country. Sometimes, I swear they need Nanny Jo to come down there and teach the Democrats how you handle a temper tantrum. But the Democrats don't want to own this stimulus/recovery. Too bad, they won. With winning so many seats and the presidency, comes responsibility.
Originally Posted By andyll Yes... this is when we say the Congress Democrates are spineless. The Repubs never had 60 votes and did not seem to have problems pushing through bills. If the Repubs fillibuster every bill then there is no way they will survive the need election
Originally Posted By gadzuux I agree - to a point. The bill is 'submitted' for a vote by the majority party - in this case, the dems. I wanted to see Pelosi put the stimulus bill up for a vote and DARE the GOP to try and filibuster - call their bluff. The reason that I heard for not doing it is that it's perceived as adversarial at a time when the president is trying for cooperation. The concern was that by openly challenging the GOP members, they would 'circle the wagons' and the dems might not have been able to swing the three republicans they eventually got. But I agree that forcing the GOP house to filibuster would place them in a harsh light for the rest of the nation - at least the people who are paying attention. We have a smaller version of this same battle going on the the CA state legislature right now. The state is essentially bankrupt, sending out IOUS and layoff notices, and curtailing hours. There's a $42 billion dollar shortfall, and the republicans seem to think that this can magically be handled through 'cutting fat' alone. There tired old mantra of "no new taxes" hasn't changed, and they're ruining the state by sticking to these philosophical and ideological viewpoints. Our state now ranks 50th in credit worthiness. Even our GOP governor - Arnold himself - is trying to get his own party to see reason, but it can't be done. The reasons the GOP members in the state legislature are obstructing are the same reasons they're obstructing in the federal government - they're afraid of losing in the next primary. They're endangering everybody else in an effort to protect their own positions. I'm sure that they'll be the usual suspects coming in and posting that the 'other side' is just as bad - don't believe it. This is a pathology endemic to the republican party. All we can do is hope that they implode entirely before they ruin our state and our country.
Originally Posted By planodisney I believe that the democrats were seeking more bi-partisanship on this bill in order to avoid having the finger pointed at them, by the republicans, the year leading up to the next election. I don't think they realy wanted this to be a democratic bill and have all of the pressure of success on them. I think the Dems. are in great shape here. I believe the economy will begin to come out of this from between 1 and 1 1/2 years. I don't think it will have anything to do with this current bill, but the dems. will be able to take all of the credit. This is a horrible bill and all democrats should be embarressed that their party once again proved, as is Rom's motto, never let a crisis go to waste. like wise, republicans put forth no well thought out counter plan but chose to try and position themselves for the next election. I am so sick and tired of the opposition party constantly putting itself in a position of needing national failure to regain power. the democrats have been doing it for 8 years and it looks as if my republicans are assuming the role. I wish all of these bums would be voted out of office. Sory about the mistakes, I am in a big hurry.
Originally Posted By DAR What I wanted to know is if the President had the support to get the bill passed why was it necessary for him to travel the country telling people about it. That just struck me as odd.
Originally Posted By hopemax The Congressional Democrats did a terrible job of explaining what the point of the stimulus was, and who it was supposed to help. GOP Senators/Representatives were on just about every media outlet they could find putting out their version, and the media lapping it up because dissention sells. Pretty graphic of the disparity <a href="http://thinkprogress.org/2009/01/28/cable-news-stimulus/" target="_blank">http://thinkprogress.org/2009/...timulus/</a> Having votes in a Congressional body isn't the same as having support from the public. I think the President knows that the people have to ultimately buy into this, for it to have a chance at success.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>What I wanted to know is if the President had the support to get the bill passed why was it necessary for him to travel the country telling people about it. That just struck me as odd.<< Outreach for the future. Hopefully resulting in a few *more* Republicants losing their congressional seats.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 From hopemax's link: "As Media Matters has documented, during the Bush administration, the media consistently allowed conservatives to dominate their shows, booking them as guests far more often than progressives. The rationale was that Republicans were “in power.” It appears that old habits die hard. Even though President Obama and his team are in control of the executive branch and Democrats are in the majority in Congress, the cable networks are still turning more often to Republicans and allowing them to set the agenda on major issues, most recently on the debate over the economic recovery package." (snip) "The media have been aiding their efforts. In a new analysis, ThinkProgress has found that the five cable news networks — CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, Fox Business and CNBC — have hosted more Republican lawmakers to discuss the plan than Democrats by a 2 to 1 ratio this week" Ah yes, the famous "liberal media bias." Right.
Originally Posted By alexbook ^--So cynical. You mean you don't believe him when he says he wants to work with everybody? ;-)
Originally Posted By mawnck >> You mean you don't believe him when he says he wants to work with everybody?<< The best answer to this was on one of those Slate podcasts, where they were discussing the alternate Republican stimulus plan consisting of nothing but tax cuts: "How can you be bipartisan when your opponents are insane?"
Originally Posted By vbdad55 when somebody can show us that this stimulus does a damn thing - then you will have a point- until then ( and maybe forever - it's a 2 headed coin otherwise ) the first round of money has done crap. My $8/check or whatever changes my life - NONE. the one incentive I can see working is the tax incentive on new cars - might actually have a positive effect -Iheard people talking about it at the Chicago AutoShow yesterday - and is in actuality a tax cut. Even Obama is backingoff some saying it will be quite some time before we may see results. I predict we'll see little actually attributable to the stimulus. Obama will either get credit or get blamed based on where the economy heads - but the stimulus is not going to be driving that bus
Originally Posted By mawnck >>when somebody can show us that this stimulus does a damn thing - then you will have a point- until then<< I had no point, other than the Dems solutions are merely misguided and irresponsible, whereas the Repubs are certifiably coo-coo. I don't expect the stimulus to do or not do much of anything that will have a significant effect on the economic drain-circle, since it's treating symptoms while ignoring the cause. However ... >>I predict we'll see little actually attributable to the stimulus.<< Keep an eye on the bond market. :-| BTW ... Ain't it funny how no one noticed that Obama and the Dems just passed the biggest tax cut in history? I kind of wish they hadn't ...
Originally Posted By mawnck >>I don't expect the stimulus to do or not do much of anything that will have a significant effect<< Please pretend that made sense. Edit function please.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Keep an eye on the bond market. :-| I hope in a positive light as maybe one day I actually will be able to retire then
