Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/20/rude.awakening.ap/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/...dex.html</a> At 3:00 a.m., Lakeville, Minnesota cops found this guy's door open, TV on, garage open, keys in the truck ignition, and children there on a sleepover who were afraid to wake him up. And yet, after they called it all to his attention, this moron feels "violated."
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf I see a father of the year nomination in his future..... Still, it is a little weird police would be going around testing people's doors to see if they are unlocked. I find that a little creepy. But if they see a door standing open I suppose that is fair fame.
Originally Posted By mele He may not be the greatest babysitter in the world but did he break any laws?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Breaking laws wasn't the point. The article said they were on a public service campaign. Normally, they leave notes on the door, but when no one responded to knocks on the open door, they went inside to make sure everything was ok.
Originally Posted By mele I understand that but you called him a moron. He has the right to be annoyed that people entered his home. I think most people would be somewhat annoyed to have police enter their home and wake them up. Of course no one answered the door...it was 3 am. Was the house trashed? Sometimes my door doesn't quite latch...should I expect the police to enter my house and wake me up in the middle of the night? Shouldn't there be a little MORE wrong than just an open door? Can cops just walk into any house whenever they want? What does the fact that there was a sleepover have to do with it? What the heck does the fact that his keys were in the ignition of his car matter? Why is this even a news story? I'm wondering how the police woke him up? I've met quite a few of our local cops (thanks to my son) and often, they aren't very friendly. Did the cops treat him like he was doing something wrong by being asleep and leaving the keys in the ignition? Was he treated to a lecture about his "mistakes"? Not for one single second can I see the cops backing down and being really apologetic once they realized that nothing was wrong. What a weird service campaign. Go door to door, leaving notes on people's doors? What does that mean? "Put your bike away or it'll get stolen" reminders? What the heck? Seriously, how high could crime be if the cops have time to do this sort of thing? This is such a weird story.
Originally Posted By mele The cops creep around people's property in the middle of the night, looking for ways crooks could steal from them and then they leave notes about it? This strikes no one else as extremely bizarre? Hell yeah, that would make me feel violated. I don't need a cop sneaking onto my property to prove to me that people can sneak onto my property. Geez, the more I think about it the creepier it gets.
Originally Posted By retlawfan I would suspect that the door was not just unlocked, but open. I deal with this regularly in my line of work. The right thing for the police to do in that case is to determine if something is wrong in the house. Can you imagine what those cops would be blamed for if there HAD been a problem and they continued on without investigating why the door was open and the keys were in the vehicle? What if the man needed medical attention, and the cops decided not to stop? What if there had been some kind of attack on this person? It's easy to blame the cops for a perceived over stepping of their duties, but they have to make decisions based on the information they have at the time, and have to look out for the best interests of everyone, including people who sometimes do not want to be helped. Of course, if the door was closed, and just unlocked, and there was no other suspicious activities, they would have had no reason to go in the house. In this case, the fact that the keys were left in the car, the garage open, and the TV on in the middle of the night would give some indication that something might be wrong. Not all cops are bad. In fact most are the nicest, hardest working public service employees we have in this country, along with EMTs, Firefighters, etc. By the way, I'm sure once he was woken up, and everything was figured out, the cops would have apologized for bothering him, even if it was for his own good. Even if he didn't take it well.
Originally Posted By mele So, keys left in the car (was the car door open or the was the car running?) and tv on in the middle of the night are suspicious? I fall asleep with the tv on occasionally. I also don't lock my car at night and leave the bedroom windows open on the summer nights. I don't need the cops to stop by in the middle of the night to tell me that I could get robbed. What, they couldn't just flyer the neighborhood with a friendly reminder during daylight hours? They write notes? I can understand the opposite...what if they didn't help someone in need, yadda, yadda, yadda. I really do understand that. But it's not like there were signs of a struggle or the neighbors heard screaming. I got it...but this guy, who was doing nothing wrong, is called a moron just because he's irritated that they came into his home? I think he has that right and I think most people would feel a little violated. It's great that you've met plenty of nice cops in your line of work. I have met some really nice cops too but I've also met some real a-holes who were jerks to me, in my own home, and I wasn't even doing anything wrong. I think sometimes they treat "civilians" a little differently than co-workers, etc. Sadly, I truly doubt that the cops apologized (the spokesperson didn't seem to be apologetic at all-kind of odd that they weren't being that there wasn't anything wrong in the house) and it's highly likely that they gave him their little service campaign lecture before leaving. I've met my share of cops at my house at 3 am and very rarely do I get any sort of friendly, apologetic vibe from them. I guess the situation in which you meet them makes a big difference. Look, I don't think these cops are bad cops. We don't know enough about the story to say that. I just think the guy has a right to feel violated since he was doing nothing wrong. If a cop pulled us over and we weren't breaking any laws, we'd be irritated. That's all I'm trying to say. That and I really think this public service campaign they're doing is downright weird.
Originally Posted By X-san I'd feel violated if my fourth amendment rights were violated, too. I hope he got their badge numbers. The guy WAS violated of his fourth amendment rights. Leave it to the OP to make light of such a thing, so long as the victim is one of those "morons" that are such a pain for cops to have to deal with. ***A police spokesman says the intrusion was justified because the officers' initial door knocks went unanswered, and they wanted to make sure nothing was wrong.*** Scary. Makes me wanna move to Canada permanently. (yes, yes, I know I live abroad already...but I wouldn't hold Japan up as a bastion of civil rights either...though sadly I think better than the U.S. these days).
Originally Posted By DlandDug In the good old days, beat policemen on night duty did check doors to make sure they were locked. I find it odd that anyone would find this service creepy. Yes, entering a house and waking the owner does cross a line, but in this instance it seems justified. As was pointed out above, if the homeowner had been in some sort of trouble, the police would have been severely criticized for not investigating the suspicious circumstances.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <In the good old days, beat policemen on night duty did check doors to make sure they were locked. I find it odd that anyone would find this service creepy.> Of course, in the REALLY good old days, people used to leave their doors open and not think twice about it. Some of my rural relatives still do.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "The guy WAS violated of his fourth amendment rights. Leave it to the OP to make light of such a thing, so long as the victim is one of those "morons" that are such a pain for cops to have to deal with." You've GOT to be kidding. As a matter of fact, anyone who thinks the cops were wrong here aren't thinking clearly at all. People like X would be screaming about the ineptitude of this police department and generalizing police everywhere had they merely left a note, only to find the kids gone, the place ransacked and the truck missing in the morning. This guy cetainly was and is a moron. Unsupervised children in an unlocked house, an open garage and keys in the ignition. One turn of that key by a kid and who knows what happens next. And boy howdy, yes they were justified in going inside. It was 3:00 a.m. for heaven's sake. No response to knocks on the door? And you expect them to stay out and leave a note? Absolutely out of the question.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Shouldn't there be a little MORE wrong than just an open door? Can cops just walk into any house whenever they want? What does the fact that there was a sleepover have to do with it? What the heck does the fact that his keys were in the ignition of his car matter? Why is this even a news story?" What more would you like? A fire? Blood tracks? Shell casings? Dead bodies? Bad things can happen, even in Mayberry.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Here's the story as it very likely could have been written, had the police not "violated" Troy Moulde. None of it is sensational, all of it realistic, and unfortunately, a type of story that has been repeated over and over again. And presumably, one that some would rather read that have those renegade cops enter the house. LAKEVILLE, Minnesota (AP) -- Lakeville police were investigating a hit and run fatality and a burglary that all began when their department inadvertently tipped off the perpetrators that the door to a house was unlocked and keys to a truck were under the welcome mat. It all started at 3:00 a.m. when Lakeville patrol officers noticed a door that was ajar at the residence of Troy Moulde. As part of a public service campaign, local police have been leaving notes for residents were they find open windows, doors or other similar potentially unsafe conditions. Although police got no response when they knocked on the door, they simply removed the keys from the ignition, put them under the mat, and left a note on the door explaining what they had done. They locked the door and left. As a result of public pressure, they did not cross the threshhold of the house, not even to toss the keys inside. However, a short while later three men, ages 17-22, walked by Moulde's house after an evening of drinking and taking drugs. One of them saw the note, took the keys and sped out of the driveway, but not before running over Moulde, who had gone outside to investigate the commotion, according to his seven year old son who witnessed his father's death. Moulde suffered multiple fractures to his skull, chest and legs. Police caught up with the three men a short while later after finding the abandoned truck a mile away from the scene. All three were hiding behind some buildings in a railway yard. Inside the truck police also found personal property taken from the house along with several open beer bottles.
Originally Posted By mele That's right SPP, you're the only one who thinks clearly around here. That's apparent by all of the constant bickering and name-calling you do with everyone these days. Of course, everyone who thinks differently than you is just a moron.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Moreover mele, I didn't call YOU a moron. The guy in the story certainly is.
Originally Posted By barboy Can I be any more on the fence here? On this one I really do see both sides. On one hand what the hell is gov't doing walking into a private residence uninvited just because a door is open, garage is door is up and the tv on. Those are not reasons--- nor is keys left in a car a reason. The only rationale to enter is concern for unsupervised children......but that is the kicker now isn't it? The police entered without a valid reason in the first place and I presume that is how they found the children. If something like this ever graduated to criminal charges I smell "poisonous/forbidden fruit" from 10 miles away. Now for those who are outraged or ticked off by police misconduct I'd bet a fresh out of the oven churro that if some tragedy went down like an abduction and the police knew about the "suspicious" open doors and did nothing then you folk might be calling the police fools for not getting proactive. It's a no win situation for the police: damned if they do, damned if they do not.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Plus, since nothing is a certainty and so therefore it's possible, please cite me to someplace where I've called a poster a name. I've gone to great lengths lately not to do so. Have I caled beau names? You bet. But where else? Note here it took just nine posts before X took a gratuitous shot at me, because he doesn't like me or police. I have not responded in kind. Douglas is all over me in other threads, solely because I said someone else was sounding like him. I took issue with someone called DAR less than human. Was that it? It floors me that if someone is asleep at 3:00 a.m., the door is ajar, four kids around seven years of age are in the house, they're afraid to wake up the Dad, the garage is open with a truck inside that has keys in the ignition, people are upset the police would wake the guy to point it out. If I'm not left to assume people think what this father did was okay and they'd do it themselves, then what else?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "It's a no win situation for the police: damned if they do, damned if they do not." And so therefore they err on the side of caution? An open door at 3:00 a.m. with no response to a knock is not reason to check inside?
