Originally Posted By Dabob2 Ru-roh, Reorge. Romney was in some political trouble when he revealed (obviously trying to soften the blow when the actual disclosure comes) that he pays about 15 percent of his income in taxes - because most of his income is capital gains rather than regular old income - in other words, less than the average middle class American pays in taxes. This was bound to raise some eyebrows and cause people to wonder - rightly - why zillionaires get to pay a lower tax rate than the average person. This is perfectly legal, of course, but nonetheless many people would question whether it was RIGHT. Then he created a self-inflicted wound by saying that he did have some regular income from speaking fees, but "not very much." Turns out the "not very much" was about $375,000 for the last year available. Obviously that's anything but "not very much" to the average person. It's about 7 times the median annual salary, and of course millions of Americans make less than the median. But the 350K is indeed a pittance compared to Romney's other income, which is estimated in the high 7 figures - and that's annually. So there's two problems. But now comes a third, that I think may be the most serious politically. Turns out, both Romney and Bain have parked millions of dollars in the Cayman Islands, which is where people go when they want to avoid paying their fair share of taxes. <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/romney-parks-millions-offshore-tax-haven/story?id=15378566" target="_blank">http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/...15378566</a> "Although it is not apparent on his financial disclosure form, Mitt Romney has millions of dollars of his personal wealth in investment funds set up in the Cayman Islands, a notorious Caribbean tax haven. A spokesperson for the Romney campaign says Romney follows all tax laws and he would pay the same in taxes regardless of where the funds are based. As the race for the Republican nomination heats up, Mitt Romney is finding it increasingly difficult to maintain a shroud of secrecy around the details about his vast personal wealth, including, as ABC News has discovered, his investment in funds located offshore and his ability to pay a lower tax rate. "His personal finances are a poster child of what's wrong with the American tax system," said Jack Blum, a Washington lawyer who is an authority on tax enforcement and offshore banking. " (snip) "In addition to paying the lower tax rate on his investment income, Romney has as much as $8 million invested in at least 12 funds listed on a Cayman Islands registry. Another investment, which Romney reports as being worth between $5 million and $25 million, shows up on securities records as having been domiciled in the Caymans." (That's a pretty big "between!") "Official documents reviewed by ABC News show that Bain Capital, the private equity partnership Romney once ran, has set up some 138 secretive offshore funds in the Caymans. Romney campaign officials and those at Bain Capital tell ABC News that the purpose of setting up those accounts in the Cayman Islands is to help attract money from foreign investors, and that the accounts provide no tax advantage to American investors like Romney. Romney, the campaign said, has paid all U.S. taxes on income derived from those investments. "The tax consequences to the Romneys are the very same whether the fund is domiciled here or another country," a campaign official said in response to questions. "Gov. and Mrs. Romney have money invested in funds that the trustee has determined to be attractive investment opportunities, and those funds are domiciled wherever the fund sponsors happen to organize the funds." Bain officials called the decision to locate some funds offshore routine, and a benefit only to foreign investors who do not want to be subjected to U.S. taxes. Tax experts agree that Romney remains subject to American taxes. But they say the offshore accounts have provided him -- and Bain -- with other potential financial benefits, such as higher management fees and greater foreign interest, all at the expense of the U.S. Treasury. Rebecca J. Wilkins, a tax policy expert with Citizens for Tax Justice, said the federal government loses an estimated $100 billion a year because of tax havens. Blum, the D.C. tax lawyer, said working through an offshore investment vehicle allows the investor to "avoid a whole series of small traps in the tax code that ordinary people would face if they paid tax on an onshore basis." Wilkins agreed, saying the "primary advantage to setting those funds up in an offshore jurisdiction like the Cayman Islands or Bermuda is it helps the investors avoid tax." So... I'm sure this is perfectly legal. And maybe Romney even pays the full whopping 15 percent on all this money parked in the Caymans. The PURPOSE of Cayman accounts is often to hide money, though, so it would probably take a more thorough investigation to discover this. But even if so, a). "foreign interest" can be taken as a tax deduction, so almost certainly Romney is taking advantage of this to lower his taxes even further than that whopping 15 percent," b). this just makes him look terrible. Americans are rightly ticked off about a system so rigged that it rewards those who already have more money than God with ways to keep even more of their money that ordinary people can never access. I don't know about you, but my taxes are taken out of my paycheck every week and sent straight to Uncle Sam, never taking that little Caymans detour. As Bruce Judson of the Yale Entrepreneurial Institute puts it: <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-judson/mitt-romney-offshore-accounts_b_1214591.html?ref=politics" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...politics</a> "FYI: I predict that, despite the statements of his campaign, we will ultimately find substantial tax savings for the Romney family through these tax havens. Second, it is almost impossible for me to believe that any candidate running for president is foolish enough to think the American people don't care. There is nothing patriotic about parking money earned by "creating jobs" in offshore funds. It is fundamentally an unpatriotic act. You are knowingly taking your activities outside of the jurisdiction of the United States. How can Romney possibly defend this action?" (snip) "Moreover, there is the distinct feeling that the combination of Romney's refusal to release his tax returns and the lack of disclosure of such accounts in his public filings (although within the law) indicate that Romney knows this is unpatriotic, reprehensible behavior and somehow believed he could be elected president without this coming to light." Discuss.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<Americans are rightly ticked off about a system so rigged that it rewards those who already have more money than God with ways to keep even more of their money that ordinary people can never access.>> Now, now. We must remember what Mitt said the other day, that we losers are simply "envious". Marie Antoinette didn't get it either.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan For me the biggest mystery is why Romney doesn't embrace his wealth. Tell voters "Heck yeah, I'm a rich guy because I understand business and the good, bad and ugly in capitalism. I can use that know-how to improve the economy." Republicans would love that, I would think. And most Americans want to hear about jobs, jobs, jobs. Instead, he sputters and gets squirrely and makes these strange blunders, and says things like his speaking fees "aren't much" and so forth. And all of this adds to his "ick factor" and it's why even the GOP has spent the past several months hoping against hope that somebody, anybody other than Mitt will rise to the top. Very plastic guy.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 That's why I think the "p-word" (i.e. "phony") is the most devastating brush one of the candidates (presumably Gingrich now, or Obama later, or their surrogates) could use to "define" Romney. Once someone gets "defined" in the public imagination, it's very hard to change. Look how many people thought - and still think - that Gore claimed to have invented the internet; something he never actually said. But it defined him as aloof and arrogant, in contrast to Bush's "guy you'd rather have a beer with" image - and it probably cost Gore the presidency (even if he still managed to win the popular vote!) Nobody likes a phony. Nobody can TRUST a phony. And this definition of Romney has the added bonus of being true. The guy changes his positions like most people change their socks, yet always has that same fake "sincere" look on his face when he states today's position. And all the "I've worried about getting a pink slip" stuff? Phony, phony, phony. Checks for my brilliant political consultancy can be sent by Newt or Barack c/o LP.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper If you are rich today, you are evil. I agree 2oon...he should be saying, "yes...I am happy to have taken full advantage of the American dream and I want to set up policies and practices that will aid more to do likewise."
Originally Posted By Dabob2 It's not (at least we don't think at this point) a question of legality. It's a question of why do people who already have a zillion dollars get all the breaks? Can you shelter YOUR paycheck in the Caymans? I can't. Can you pay 15%? I can't. He's becoming a symbol of the inequality of the system. And that's not a good thing to be. He's also a phony.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>If you are rich today, you are evil.<< Yes, that's what the OP said. Well spotted.
Originally Posted By dshyates "He's becoming a symbol of the inequality of the system. And that's not a good thing to be." Oh, I so hope the GOP run "Mister .1%".
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I worked at a company where every few months, there would be an off-site managers meeting. At this meeting, the various VPs would go up and present what was going on in their division. Each of the VPs would take turns leading off their part with some sort of golf joke about the top guy. All six of them would get a chuckle out of this, while everyone else in the room smiled politely or shifted in their seats. It was purely phony and butt-kissy and uncomfortable, and when Romney speaks I see a guy who would have fit right in with that sort of executive team -- thinking that they were fitting right in with the grunts. His attempts to roll up his sleeves and look like an average guy are nothing new, every politician does some variation of the speech by a barn somewhere in a denim shirt and no tie. But Romney somehow has a unique ability to make others who do that schtick look positively genuine by comparison. It's weird. And creepy.
Originally Posted By ecdc Here's what boggles my mind. I remember not that long ago that it was pretty universally understood that putting your money in the Caymans was a scummy thing to do. It's what villains did in movies. Now, we have people going "Well it's just en vogue to hate the wealthy and think they're evil," or asking, "So...what's the problem with doing this?" We used to share values about what it meant to be a decent American, and one of those things was that people pay their fair share. Sure, we might argue over the tax rate and how much was a fair share, but Americans understood that actually putting your money overseas to avoid paying was unpatriotic. Now, it's defended as yet another "Hey, it's not illegal!" stunt people can pull to stick it to the government. This from the party of personal responsibility; this from the people who brought us "country first."
Originally Posted By dshyates Willard lives in a very small world where everyone looks like him and his lovely wife.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox The remaining registered Republican voters need to face the fact that this is their 2004 election. Whoever gets the GOP nomination, they're going to be roasted alive, just like John Kerry was over the Swift Boat ads. There is no one in the GOP field who doesn't have something seriously unethical or morally reprehensible in their current and/or past lives, or who doesn't perform their dog whistle bigoted sound bites to appeal to the far right, that makes the rest of us cringe. All of this crap will definitely repulse the rest of the nation during the general election, and none of these guys will be able to spin their way out of trouble.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Now, it's defended as yet another "Hey, it's not illegal!" stunt people can pull to stick it to the government. This from the party of personal responsibility; this from the people who brought us "country first.">> This is part and parcel of Obama Derangement Syndrome. The supporters of Mitt and Newt and Rick hate Obama with a passion. That's the main impetus behind their rationale for getting behind these guys. So they will take their previously held beliefs like "personal responsibility" and toss it out the window, in order to feel OK with themselves for supporting a d-bag who equates homosexuality to bestiality or for supporting a d-bag who cheated on two wives or for supporting a d-bag who's invested hundreds of millions offshore in order to skip out on paying taxes. Anyone but Obama. Anyone. Morals and ethics be damned. As for Mitt's explanation... setting up offshore accounts is difficult and expensive. It's not like going down to your neighborhood BofA and opening up a savings account. No one EVER sets up offshore accounts in the Cayman Islands to simply attract foreign investment. Baloney. It's done for one reason and one reason only: T-A-X D-O-D-G-E Mitt cares about our nation and keeping the middle class afloat about as much as tooth decay. It's all about Mitt and his Millions. It's all about securing America for the rich and powerful. You know... folks like him.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan <<Now, it's defended as yet another "Hey, it's not illegal!" stunt people can pull to stick it to the government. This from the party of personal responsibility; this from the people who brought us "country first.">> Spot on.
Originally Posted By dshyates Let's see, there are 3 hopefuls and Ron Paul left in the running. First there is Willard. See Above. Newt. How the **** did that happen? Apparently, GOP supporters don't remember anything between Saint Reagan and Osama Obama. And..... Um........ Ooops. Who is that 3rd hopeful? Um....no..not Perry. Well anyway. Now you guys understand why GOP lawmakers have introduced a record number of voter suppression laws all across our great land. It's not about how you play the game. It's whether you win or lose that matters.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>The remaining registered Republican voters need to face the fact that this is their 2004 election. Whoever gets the GOP nomination, they're going to be roasted alive, just like John Kerry was over the Swift Boat ads.<< The difference: There's a Gop noise machine to explain to them why that stuff doesn't matter, or isn't true, or isn't as bad as Obama. Remember, these people will believe anything.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Remember, these people will believe anything.>> I firmly believe the percentage of voters who fall into that particular group is shrinking. Most moderates have left the GOP, precisely because they no longer 'believe anything.' They've wised up and realized that their party has been hijacked by greedy corporate-owned politicians who no longer speak for them. They probably won't vote for Obama, but they won't vote for any of these clowns, either. They'll just stay home or leave the Presidential candidate column blank.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< His attempts to roll up his sleeves and look like an average guy are nothing new, every politician does some variation of the speech by a barn somewhere in a denim shirt and no tie. >>> I remember when President Clinton did this (perhaps Governor Clinton at the time?) Jay Leno made fun of him that night, because Clinton's denim shirt still had creases in it, having apparently been just taken out of the shrink-wrap it came in. Leno's point was he doesn't know too many blue-collar workers that wear a denim shirt to work and get their hands dirty that do so with shirts that look like they've never been worn before.
