Originally Posted By ecdc Police in Ferguson, Missouri shot an unarmed black teen, and a community of people sick of being targeted because of their skin color has risen up. And how do police respond? By massing for battle. They also arrested two journalists and fired tear gas at more journalists. This is what happens when police forces get wartime weapons and gear. Welcome to the land of the free! <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.vox.com/2014/8/13/6000799/ferguson-governor-nixon-president-obama-need-to-get-control">http://www.vox.com/2014/8/13/6...-control</a> <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/08/police_in_ferguson_military_weapons_threaten_protesters.html">http://www.slate.com/articles/...ers.html</a>
Originally Posted By ecdc If you're like me and you've followed the news as it's unfolded, you're likely to just succumb to the rage at how appalling all of this is. I'm ashamed for my country right now. The best of Twitter: If teachers were doing as poor a job as the St. Louis police, politicians would be falling all over themselves to condemn them. Remember when police fired teargas and rubber bullets at Cliven Bundy's supporters? Where are all the libertarians so worried about government run amok? Apparently it's a tragedy when government taxes a grandson's inheritance, but when someone else's grandson gets shot by police, hey, that's just how it goes.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Get a grip here. Yes, cops killed an unarmed Black teen. The police claim the kid was in the cop car grabbing for an officer's gun. Friends of the victim claim the victim had his hands in the air and was trying to walk away when the shots were fired. There is no solid evidence at this point confirming either side. Undoubtedly, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Looting and burning buildings accomplishes nothing... if anything it makes the potential jury prejudiced against the victim from the start. Yes, the police probably should have reacted in a more reasoned manner. But it the kid was innocent of doing anything he probably should have too. Unfortunately that is not what Black urban street culture tells them to do. It tells them to ALWAYS fight. The office involved should probably be dismissed from the Force and jailed. I expect that is what will ultimately happen. But give the justice system a chance to work. Burning and looting accomplishes nothing... it just negatively impacts the great majority of citizens in the community who hold jobs and are law-abiding citizens who rely on the looted and burned businesses. Shit... it is their HOME. Many of those people are out in force every day cleaning up from the riots of the night before. Of course that probably never makes the news. This should all be judged against the backdrop that St. Louis is currently the most dangerous city in the nation. As for <<If teachers were doing as poor a job as the St. Louis police, politicians would be falling all over themselves to condemn them.>> To a large extent the schools are. And the politicians say nothing. It is almost a badge of honor. They are all about cutting taxes, and you can't have good education in urban ares when you refuse to pay for it. No way would politicians criticize the poor educational system they are responsible for. Man, you keep thinking like someone from the Bay area. It is a different reality here.
Originally Posted By KilroyWasHere You know that was a very inciteful post you made raodtrip, I like it all the way. I wish people could read it and understand that violence is conner productive to making us better as americans
Originally Posted By KilroyWasHere By the way why are you so sure that trueth lies somewhere in between? It is possible that kids arms were in air and he was executed and its possible that kid tried to get a gun from police. We don't know, yet
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< It is possible that kids arms were in air and he was executed and its possible that kid tried to get a gun from police. We don't know, yet >>> It's also possible that both are true, at slightly different times during the incident.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 One of the witnesses was a friend of the victim, but two others were two women who either didn't know him or only vaguely did. All three say he was shot with his hands in the air at a good distance from the cop, who kept shooting while under no threat from him. (And if anything, "black urban street culture" tells you to put your hands up and be overly deferential if the cop seems in any way hostile.) The cop says the kid was reaching for his gun, INSIDE the car. The two women say no, he was never inside the car and in fact was trying to get away from the cop, who was the one trying to keep them together. Without video we may never know exactly what happened. My best guess: the two kids were walking down the street, instead of the sidewalk, and the cop told them to get on the sidewalk. Knowing they weren't doing anything wrong, the kids give the cop some attitude, which ticks the cop off. He tells the kids to "come here" and when he tries to get out of his car, they're standing too close to his car door for him to get out. This further ticks him off, and he grabs the one kid through the window and they have a tussle. The cop reaches for his gun, which because he's tussling, goes off once inside the car. Now thoroughly ticked off and maybe thinking "crap, I could have been seriously hurt here," the cop now feels like he needs to arrest the kid. The kid also freaks out at the gunshot, succeeds in breaking free, and tries to leave. The cop gets out and shoots the kid. The women say they saw the kid react to this first shot by turning around and putting his hands in the air. The cop shoots him again anyway. Ticking off a cop, though sometimes unwise (which is why every black parent repeatedly tells their kids not to do it, but teenagers don't always follow parental advice, as we know), is not a crime. Nor is it something a professional cop is supposed to let get to him to the point that he shoots an unarmed kid at a good distance from him. As when Rodney King was beat up, it was caught on tape, and the cops STILL got acquitted by a Simi Valley jury, there's a history and a context here that can't be ignored. A "last straw" element. That said, obviously looting is not a constructive response - anything but. And everyone and his brother is calling for a non-violent response, but a minority of opportunistic people are using it as an excuse to loot. That's unfortunate, but the great bulk of people upset about this are doing nothing of the sort. They want the police held responsible, which is anything but a given, historically speaking.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Get a grip here.<< No thanks. I think I'm tired of white people lecturing us all on the problems of the "black community" and telling everyone to get a grip, chill out, it's all good. It's not all good, and I'm with the people in Ferguson. Dabob is exactly right, "there's a history and a context here that can't be ignored. A 'last straw' element." Every single g****mn time this happens, we hear about how "we don't know" and we weren't there. It's quite literally death by a thousand cuts to African Americans and to our nation as a whole. You can keep trying to single out the individual events all you like, but they all add up to one very clear, very straightforward conclusion: We have a culture of white supremacy in the United States that continues to brutalize and terrorize African Americans, and it is supported by white Americans who automatically assume if a black man has any kind of interaction with the police, it's because he's done something wrong. Remember when those black cops shot that unarmed white teenager and everybody started saying "we don't know what happened and the kid was no saint" and looked into his past and posted unflattering pictures of him and wondered out loud what he'd done to deserve to get shot? Yeah, me neither.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Man, you keep thinking like someone from the Bay area.<< Oh, no. Anything but that.
Originally Posted By ecdc I understand that my posts on race issues like this paint me as a radical. I happily embrace that...because crazy far-lefty I may be on this, I'm not wrong. The response of "Whoa, you're so far out there!" is just proof of how far we still have to go on issues of race. It's a sign of how people unknowingly accept the status quo of white supremacy as the default position. In other words, that I'm painted as a radical is just further evidence of the problem I'm trying to elucidate.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip ecdc... I wasn't trying to tell "Black People" anything. I was reacting to an LP'ers post. I had no idea you were Black... I know of two people at LP that are, having seen their photos here at LP. But that did not include you and would have made no difference. The truth usually lies somewhere other than what either side is claiming. You will note however that I think the cop was guilty of illegal actions and should probably be dismissed from the force and jailed. I don't think I am trying to ignore anything. I am asking people to give the justice system a chance to find the truth. That is what people in Ferguson are doing. By and large they are not the people causing problems. Of 32 looters arrested the first night, NOT ONE of them was a Ferguson resident. They were all "imports" from the city of St. Louis. The thugs were there burning and looting a predominantly Black St. Louis suburb (certainly not a wealthy one, but better off than nearby North St. Louis) taking advantage of the opportunity to have a little "fun" and take some free stuff from the the Black people living there who had actually been able to accumulate a little something. That seems to always be the case, whether it is murders in Chicago or riots in Fegruson... it is Black people victimizing other Black people. Whatever justified complaints they may well have, that makes NO SENSE whatsoever.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I had no idea you were Black<< I'm not, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I tried to use neutral language and it apparently came off wrong. I should've said "my fellow white people." Dabob2 can tell you I'm as pasty white as they come >>The truth usually lies somewhere other than what either side is claiming.<< While I think that's a good rule of thumb, it becomes a middle-ground fallacy when it's applied to all situations. And that's precisely the problem here. People attempting to be reasonable stake out some middle ground, and in individual situations, that appears like a sound, reasonable perspective to have. But again, at what point do we see the forest through the trees? At what point do we add up all these incidents and realize, "Young black men are being killed and the people doing the killing are getting away with it." At what point, when we examine the statistics, do we acknowledge that there is serious disparate treatment between black Americans and white Americans vis a vis interactions with law enforcement at all levels, whether it's police, prosecutors, judges, or prisons? It starts with these incidents. Now is the time to talk about that, not get distracted by side issues of looting or whether or not the guy who was shot has a criminal background. That's what derails real change every time.
Originally Posted By ecdc I heartily endorse this: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.blackgirldangerous.org/2014/08/things-stop-distracted-black-person-gets-murdered-police/">http://www.blackgirldangerous....-police/</a> "Things To Stop Being Distracted By When A Black Person Gets Murdered By Police" 1. Over-Simplified Talk of “Riots” 2. Looting 3. Celebrities 4. The Murder Victim’s Past 5. Respectability Politics 6. Lies Mainstream Media Tells You The author goes into detail on each point and concludes: "The issue is yet another unarmed Black teenager murdered by the police. His name was Mike Brown."
Originally Posted By RoadTrip ^^^ Yes, which is exactly why I say the officer involved should be dismissed and jailed. There is more than one issue involved here. One is the needless shooting of an unarmed Black teen. I think I see that fairly clearly and support the appropriate response... his going to jail. The second is the senseless looting and how it does nothing but hurt the local community... they are already suffering enough. Although that issue may be nowhere near as important as the first one, it should not be ignored either.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Man, you keep thinking like someone from the Bay area. It is a different reality here.>> Since you're not from the Bay Area, you need to STFU right now. Second, the decades-long history of redlining this area is at the core of the blatant racial discrimination we're witnessing today. Here's a history lesson for you: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/08/14/3471237/ferguson-housing-segregation/">http://thinkprogress.org/econo...egation/</a> Before popping off with half-baked arguments regarding Ferguson, try educating yourself about how minorities have been treated in this part of Missouri for almost a century, when the redlining began. Not much difference than the Deep South. It is one severely bigoted county.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Since you're not from the Bay Area, you need to STFU right now.>> I was referring ONLY to the Bay Area regarding the comment concerning education. And that I know about, and it something that a Bay Area resident would not. I still never suggested he STFU... just pointed out that he probably wasn't aware of the local situation. Area politicians would NEVER criticize teachers for doing a poor job. They prefer to think everything is fine and dandy and that therefore cutting funds to education should make no difference. The Democrat governor of Missouri recently cut funds allocated for education from a budget already passed by a Republican controlled legislature and was signed by him. Go figure. <<Second, the decades-long history of redlining this area is at the core of the blatant racial discrimination we're witnessing today. Before popping off with half-baked arguments regarding Ferguson, try educating yourself about how minorities have been treated in this part of Missouri for almost a century, when the redlining began. Not much difference than the Deep South. It is one severely bigoted county.>> I already know that. I have no question that southern Missouri is extremely bigoted and I've said that here more than once. It forms the core of why Obama is so widely despised and actually hated around here. But looting and setting fires is STILL WRONG. One does not excuse the other. I think you should STFU too. Not because you live in the Bay Area or even because you are a liberal extremist. Just because I think you are freaking obnoxious. That's all.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox This whole situation is seriously F'ed up. Cops were photographed and filmed launching tear gas canisters at an al Jazeera America film crew, which made them disperse from their equipment quickly. As they were running down the street away from the tear gas, law enforcement with gas masks moved in and dismantled/destroyed their equipment. All of these was caught on video: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/al-jazeera-ferguson-tear-gas-journalists_n_5678081.html">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...081.html</a> Cliven Bundy armed militia thugs get a free pass, while reporters get arrested and tear gassed just doing their jobs. American democracy is over. Conservative White America completely runs the show.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck It just seems to me that cops are incapable of giving up anything in a confrontation. Any speck of humility, or losing a little face in the name of peace is nearly impossible for these guys. What does a grown cop gain in dominating a wise assed kid? These guys just can't give an inch for fear of appearing weak, or God forbid, kind. When is the last time any of you heard a cop say please? There are plenty of fair cops, but a disproportionate number seem nothing more than bullies, and consistently reinforce that image by their actions. Sure, the black community has a strong attitude toward police, but it is not without reason.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Absolutely ZERO excuse for this kind of behavior by the police. What they did to these reporters was blatantly unconstitutional. Where the hell are the Feds to rein this in? <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-ferguson-washington-post-reporter-wesley-lowery-gives-account-of-his-arrest/2014/08/13/0fe25c0e-2359-11e4-86ca-6f03cbd15c1a_story.html">http://www.washingtonpost.com/...ory.html</a>
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Absolutely ZERO excuse for this kind of behavior by the police. What they did to these reporters was blatantly unconstitutional. Where the hell are the Feds to rein this in?>> You are correct. There is ZERO excuse for that. There is a "voluntary" night-time curfew in place, but nothing else. If they want to enforce it they should make it a legally binding curfew. Otherwise stay the hell away until someone actually breaks the law. But that still doesn't justify looting. You still try to justify illegal actions of one side by pointing out illegal actions on the other. Makes no difference... it maybe explains it but still doesn't justify it.
